The only people who ask for manual gearboxes are...

Yeah, but Mclaren don't really save much weight with it, do they? And the only way they can justify the cost is to put the same tub in every single car.

Ferrari offered the manual on the 430 and california. Nobody bought them, so they stopped making them. What a GT3 and GT4 buyer want is a different market to any of the Ferraris. The GT3RS fully optioned out costs around what the very cheapest no option Ferrari is, so because Porsche still sees some demand in the lower market doesn't mean it exists in the higher markets. If it did, somebody would make one, but can you name a single 200k+ car that is available with a manual anymore? Lambos aren't, Ferraris aren't, Mclarens aren't, Mercs aren't, Porsche's aren't, Paganis aren't, Bugs aren't etc. If people in that market wanted them, somebody, somewhere, would make one.

 

love the 570, even with the DCT its as close as a modern tech car gets to being a drivers car, and exotic enough to still have that sense of ocasion. Love the aventador too, its so raw so lambo.

 

So, either all of the manufacturers that make cars in the $200k+ range are blind to this underserved minority, or it just doesn't exist in any quantity to be economically viable. It's not just Ferrari, it's every single manufacturer playing that arena. Which do you think it is?

 

I never said CF was better, you said ferrari was about performance and F1 tech.


Actualy pagani still makes the zonda to order, last I heard Lewis Hamilton bought one with manual, because when not on track he really likes to enjoy his drive.

You do make a point about cost, maybe on a +200K car its just a pose special because who would risk it on track or really going fast, maybe thats why I have only seen 1 458 on ocasion at track events. Maybe also most people buying a +200k car are so old they can barely get in and out let alone drive a manual.

However we see huge $$$ paid for classics with manual even among younger buyers, F40s F50s, 288s. We see huge $$$ paid for manufactuer built or licensed recreations, jag XKSS and Etype, cars without vintage provenance/collectability so to speak. these are cars bought to drive and track. So there is a client base, they are just not being served well by contemporary products. In fact if you look at the recreation buisness(not kit cars or fakes) its huge, thousands of cars per year.

I think we have had numerous threads on the manual subject, and numerous prior posters who tried to order a manual 430 but were not allowed to by the dealer, so I dont buy any of those stats. Nor was a 430 manual optimised around a manual, same and even more so with the 599, they were subpar int his regard.

When ferrari built the 288 consesus was they would struggle to sell it, too hard too raw people said. Meanwhile the crude 288 is remembered in way that the tech heavy refined 959 is not.

Now imagine a lightened 488 with a manual and real feedback steering, its a modern F40 and for 300k appealign to me in way no new ferrari is. Or a 4c tub with masser TTV6 and great styling called a dino. Either of those is far more appealign to many of us than a Cali, or any of the bloated GT cars that turn a few quick laps.

Whats the average time of ownership for a new modern ferrari, tells you a lot about who they are serving and why.

 

I think its product execution more than anything. You also pointed out that sub 200k cars are DCT only like the I8. So maybe the +200K manufactuerers have not woken up yet. Have you tried to buy a 911R the real off the showroom price is aporachign 500K and a 997 Gt3Rs 4.0 is 400k, so who is paying that money and why? Porche may ask only 180k base, but people pay way more for one of these than even a speciale, why?

And yes its a limited market, but the development of such a car is not huge, after all one can use existing platforms and componants, just executed differently and with a different transmision and steering gear. Seems to work when they do limited runs of say a speciale.

But maybe you are right too few spending over 200k is young enough to drive anythign other than an AT.

I know spent more than that on soemthing different for road and track and I am not the only one.

Still who is buying all those F40s and Countaches and Carerra Gts or Mclkaren F1s then mostly wealthy people in their 40's and 50s'.

Maybe you are right, we wont see a ferrari at the track till they build a sub 200k car because ferrais are great to show, but too expesive to really run.

Dont know the asnwer, but I do know ferrari is not even trying, and that regardless of lower price the slower cayman GT4 was a surprising and accidental sucess swimming in the face of ther pdk revolution, just as the 288 was a surprising sucess decades earlier.

 

it's all about profit...
the order books keep track of the votes... the orders for DCT is where the profit is... those wanting manual in most cases don't want to pay the price to certify and inventory, to offer the manual at competitive pricing... it would be easier and cheaper for the mfg to offer a manual, if the DOT and their regs didn't get involved with substitution of transmissions... it would then become a matter of ordering one from the proper vendor and plug it in or do like Porsche, which has a much larger customer base at a lower price point, market an appealing limited production package to the followers of the brand and only go into production when essentially sold out

 

Fwiw it's been said by some here that were able to get one that it was extremely difficult to place an order for manual trans 430.

It's hard to simply say that no one bought them if they were difficult to buy.

 

This is a great conversation.

As someone who owns four 3-pedal Ferraris (F512M, 550, 575M, F430) and no two pedal ones, and also someone (one of those "British journalists" in the original quote) who has been to the launch of, or test driven, every mainstream Ferrari since 2001, I concur that DCT is far better than gated. A different league of technology. But I prefer my gated cars, partly because they are more fit for purpose, blasting down perfect country lanes at a date and time of my choice. If I were to drive a Ferrari every day, in all traffic conditions, a new DCT one would be much preferable, and I'm sure that applies to the track too.

And to the chap who said

"Even the f430 with a stick is well..awful."

Someone forgot to tell me last night when I was blasting through the Chiltern hills in my 430 manual, clack-clack roar, both feet working away, balancing, matching, trying to perfect the art every single time. I loved the Scuderia when it came out, and it's a better car, but I bought mine instead of a Scuderia (price difference not that great) because, precisely, of this. What an engine, what a car, a modern Ferrari with a manual gearbox!

And simultaneously, I completely get why it makes no sense for Ferrari to make more of these. We're a minority, and not interesting for Ferrari. Lots of passions are minority passions.

 

I wonder if Ferrari is thinking of this option on the Speciale versions? The exclusivity factor may still chime in and the option may be reintroduced when the balance sheets get stronger. The 4C tub and lack of return on the 430 sticks might not impact the Fiat group too much longer. I also wondered if exclusivity had made the sticks hard to get before the 458. A Dino may happen because I think Fiat wants to sell more Ferraris to get more income to compete with MB and others. On my 348, I thought the manual would be cheaper to maintain, compared to a 355 f1. That's one of the reasons I went to a 360.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

I'm more of an icy craft lager and sushi person (or give me a texas chilli and a cold beer) but in a minority over here I think.

 

Lol. What is better - steak, bacon, cod or tuna?
This debate never gets old.

 

stop right there....

 

The reason they don't make stick shift anymore really isn't that Ferrari doesn't make drivers cars any more. They still make cars that appeal to those who enjoy the sensation of motion and effectively controlling that motion. Its because of the old axiom: "Horsepower sells". And I'm afraid just like too much of any good thing comes with consequences some of us may not appreciate.

Don't kid yourself. Ferrari was never a charity to make beautiful cars available to driving enthusiasts. They were extremely exclusive cars that were sold to selected clients in order to fund Mr. Enzo Ferrari's racing efforts. He found a formula that worked for him: selling less volume at greater profit. At the time the differences between race cars and street cars were not many at all.

I think back then it was easy to understand the appeal of a Ferrari. This exact car (or nearly) was successful on the track (win on Sunday, sell on Monday). So you too could have a 250 SWB, if you could afford it and if you were on the right list. Straight from the track. Amazing.

I wonder if there were criticisms of the 250 SWB California: its too soft, its not for racing... Would you accuse the driver of such a car today of not being a "driver"?

But, over the past 60+ years, for better (increased safety and reliability) and worse (not as focused), technology keeps improving.

Coming to modern race and street cars, they might as well be from different planets. And I think the racing drivers- and teams behind them- are closer to astronauts and NASA than the drivers and teams of yesteryear.

So it falls on to a maker of high end sports cars, in this case Ferrari, to find a way to bridge this ever widening gap by taking technology and an experience that only a few hyper qualified individuals on the planet can operate along with their hyper qualified teams and translate that for the rest of us.

Part of what makes a sports car such is the high power relative to other cars. Do you remember when 200bhp was a lot? I do. Today minivans have more than that! So to make a car that gives you the requisite sensation, and to be sure it will remain relevant to its market for 4-6 years, you will need a lot of power. And, you guys are right, most people don't know how to really control or respect that power. If it weren't for various electronic helper systems such as ABS and DSC we would not be enjoying the horsepower war- we, the car enthusiasts- now benefit from. I mean, look at a Dodge Hellcat. That is bananas. But they can get away with it because of all the helpers they put in which satisfy the legal departments, regulators, and also will give customers a nice thrill without crossing the line into terrifying...

So coming back to Ferrari and the move away from manual transmissions... yes, its about performance and numbers, but its also about the fact that you can't put in the hands of the average driver on a public road a 600bhp car where the systems don't have ultimate control.

I think Ferrari has the best in the business integration of systems: traction control, ESC, ABS, etc... and really the best interface with the Manettino- very simple to use, well judged modes. Why would they develop this? As I see it, its because they know they still have to make cars that are rewarding to drive... aka, drivers cars.

Before you say: BUT! What about Porsche- or BMW! I say each company will do their own thing. But, correct me if I'm not mistaken, the manual transmissions both offer these days include automated throttle blipping. While this can be turned off in some modes (truly sad to me that BMW won't turn it off unless you turn DSC off- maybe this is making my point though) I suspect they included this feature to satisfy their in house legal teams so in case the car finds itself in a tricky situation the car can still retain some degree of control.

Now maybe these new age drivers cars are not for everyone. Some might say- blah! I like the old way. Well, there are plenty of those cars on the market and can be bought and enjoyed.

But it seems to me, given how tightly these things are integrated, that its a near absurd thought to really think Ferrari could just swap out one part of the system (the transmission) without having to redesign the rest.

As it is, I think Ferrari still make great drivers cars- every one they make- yes even the ones we think are too soft- try driving them and press on a bit and you'll see they are made by people who love to drive and know you love to drive too. Of course they are not the F1 car in street form, but they feel great to drive and you can sense the connection to their racing efforts. The difference is this is a street car designed for a street driver who doesn't have a whole team monitoring systems. Yet they've distilled that all into one unit. I think thats nearly magic. So I finish simply by saying Forza!

 

Good write up.

Powerful old Fcars were a handfull. Consider the F40. Stick. No ABS. No nannies. Massive turbo lag. One has to know what they are doing to drive fast. 458 is faster and much easier to drive...also less expensive today.

So we do have a choice.

 

I have 1st hand experience with this. Actually, they were easy to order. FNA treated them as separate models. All you had to do was get on the "list" which was separate from the F1 list. But that didn't mean Ferrari would fill your order. I know, at FOD at least, they were not able to fill all the orders for 3 pedal cars.

I have heard, but can't confirm, that some dealers did their best to talk buyers out of sticks. One of the arguments I heard was that no one would want them on the secondary market. They also had a profit motive. It was still possible to flip 2005-7 cars for a profit and those speculators all ordered paddles which certainly dampened overall demand for sticks. It would be interesting to know what percentage of buyers who bought them to keep (such as myself) ordered sticks.

Dave

 

Thanks Phil. I've had a few dealers back up what you say about manuals and ordering.

 

The fun factor of a gated 6 speed...OMG! Is cruise control included with F1's?

 

I believe this is true because you couldn't test drive an F1 as it was new. Dealers had to push to make people believe it was better. And the option was another 10 grand.

But that doesn't mean people didn't like it when they got it. They did like it and still today they keep buying them.

 

THis is plain fallacy!

It is the secondary market which ends up holding onto the car for the longest period of time.
And most of the time it is filled by people who can't afford a new Ferrari, but simultaneously, want the driving experience, the style, and the noise.

F1s are faster, but they detract from the driving experience.

 

Count me as one who ordered a 6MT to keep as I still have my 2008 coupe. The dealer didn't dissuade me from getting a manual at all but I did pay a premium since it was my first Ferrari. In 2008 they were making mostly Scuderias so they really didn't care whether you ordered a manual or F1 if you were getting a regular 430.

 

I seem to have merged two posts in my mind- apologies. I meant to confirm what Dave reported. I've heard this from multiple parties that would know.

 

Caeruleus, I love the Skunkworks avatar and your post. Forza!

 

what's better?

Tube amps or solid state?
kindle or paper book?
Apple watch or a Patek Phillip?

To each their own....like what you like...buy what you want. High end exotic manufacturers still are in the *business* of making money, like it's been pointed out many times, the overwhelming majority of 'new' exotic buyers are not demanding manual.

That's it.

I don't care if you, or your friend, or you mom will buy a Ferrari 488 in stick right now...yada yada...of course there is a minority that will buy it - but not sizable enough for exotic manufacturers to invest in it nor pour the time and effort involved if certain thresholds of potential profit from serving that niche audience is not met.

That's just the reality today..endless complaints about it only matter if *those* complaints are being made by a sizable majority that actually *buy* the product...and are still ignored.

I love stick, but I am aware that most people buying Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren new today don't care or *actually* want auto...

Last F430 had around a 10% take rate no? (i've seen different numbers thrown around) I bet today if offered the 488 would probably have a 5% take rate, just doesn't make financial sense anymore for the company with relatively limited number productions.

Sad, but them the facts.

The often repeated rebuttal is how about Porsche? They 'still care' and offer manuals...

What about them?

They made more cars in just ONE year (234K in 2015) then Ferrari made since its inception (184K 1947-2015)

They make over 30K 911 units per YEAR...

Their economies of scale are on a different level...and for better or worse, that's what makes Ferrari so special on and off the road...

Maybe this will all change with sweater man....