What the heck is wrong with Williams

How can Williams be so useless for now so long? What is wrong there? Used to be such a good team and is well over due for an up!!

Heck I'm sure McLaren will soon be beating them again
Pete

 

its what happens when you have low budget. they just don't have the resources to develop the car like the other guys. without anything 'revolutionary' they're destined to be a midfield team.

 

Lower budget than the top teams, not allowed to win by Mercedes (remember Austria 2014? Suddenly not allowed to use certain engine settings by Mercedes!).

They do well all things considering. Force India does incredible, though.

 

How come they cannot get the funds?

They were able to do it once upon a time, and if they went to sponsors with a solid 5 year plan surely that would open doors as easily as other teams are able to?

So to me it is more than they lack funds, they must lack direction; a path out of mid-field.

Yep, McLaren are in a far healthier position IMO.
Pete

 

Recession and F1 declining yet costs increasing.

Mclaren are in a healthier position, even though they are slower. Honda dedicated to make the engine better is a good thing for Mclaren.

 

I think Williams need to find another manufacturer (Cosworth?), or maybe join the Honda band wagon. If Mercedes are really not allowing them to win or be competitive, what is the point for Williams?
Pete

 

Smedley, wanted by Massa who brings Petrobras sponsorship's money

 

I was just thinking that (The honda path). But changing the best engine for (by far!) the worst? Difficult decision...

Cosworth simply doesn't have the $ to develop an engine as complicated as these. If the engines are simplified again and just run a (bolt on) ERS unit to appear green, engine specialists such as Cosworth can once again join F1, and significantly lower costs for all teams involved.

 

Indeed.

 

There doesn't seem to be a driving force in the organization, no one comparable to when Frank was in his prime and Patrick Head was on the scene. It's difficult to assess how effective Claire Williams is and I've never been terribly impressed with Rob Smedley.

 

It's not always about getting the funds but how you spend them. Ferrari has funds and it doesn't seam to do better either.

 

Last couple of years they've been doing what Ferrari are doing this season; they've had a few oppertunities but ruined it by playing it too safe.

A few years ago they where at their lowest point (a la Renault right now), and under Claire Williams they've gotten to where they are now, so all in all she's a positive thing in the team IMO.

 

I think going to Cosworth is a stupid idea. The engine is just slow. Anyways, its more like a car/team management think rather than the engine. They have to focus on finishing races on solid points, then gathering money on the long run.

If Force India, in a Mercedes engine can do it, why can't Williams. ?

 

A lot of years ago, when BMW wanted to buy Williams, Sir Frank decided to stay independent and being independent in modern F1 is not easy at all. Also right now nobody finds sponsors: Force India is mainly backed by his rich owner, and we´re still waiting for the big deal that Ron Dennis said he was going to get.

But seeeing things in perspective, Williams is the best of the independent teams. They´re sliding backwards now but that was expected because their biggest asset, the Mercedes engine, is no longer so superior to what Ferrari and Renault have.

What they need now is the Honda that McLaren has: someone who gives engines for free and also brings money to the team.

 

The team themselves say it's due to low-speed performance and primarily not being able to work the tires correctly this year. This is Smedley's Vehicle Performance area. Pretty much since Patrick Head stopped being TD the team has been in decline. They didn't help themselves with having Toyota and Cosworth engines along the way, and dropping Mercedes now would be unfathomably foolish.

The balls have chopped off this team. People despise the way RB, Merc, etc operate but they do whatever is necessary to get results. Look at McLaren. RD is a prick, but he's a fighter and a winner. They knew they would never win championships as a customer team so they took a huge gamble on letting Merc go and getting Honda back in it as a works and it's been tough, but they've been improving the car and organization along the way. I can't see Williams being back in the top four anytime soon. As the PU units equalize in performance and new aero/chassis regs come next year, they're at risk of slipping back to 6 or 7 behind McLaren and Torro Rosso. Pat Symonds is already in the retirement zone age wise and once he leaves it will probably be the dark ages again. It's a shame but this is the reality.

 

I mentioned it sometime ago, but I think Frank Williams made a mistake when he broke up his alliance with BMW, and refused them to buy the team. That was his way out of F1, and he would have made a nice bundle out of it.

Mario Thyssen took the money to Hinwill to buy Sauber, but that didn't work, so BMW left F1.
I think that Williams_BMW had more future than Sauber-BMW. Williams was a better established team than Sauber will ever be.

As the BMW factory team, Williams would never have problem of engine supply or funding. Instead, staying as independent, it has gone back to being an engine customer, and I don't think it will ever be able to rival the official MB factory team.

I don't know when the exclusive contract between Honda and McLaren will allow the Japanese to supply other teams, but the engines will probably not come for free.

 

+1

McLaren didn't take the easy option, but their gamble may pay off before long.

 

Doesn't matter. BMW chickened out and ran away. Thankfully Peter Sauber came in and rescued Sauber. Imagine if we lost Williams..

 

I think it goes back further, to 1997. Adrian Newey wanted to be made a partner in Williams with Frank and Patrick Head, and the notoriously cheap Frank Williams refused to make Newey a partner. As a result, Newey took the big money offer from McLaren, leaving after the successful string of 4 WDC in 92, 93, 96, 97 that he achieved in conjunction with Patrick Head. Williams has never come remotely close to that success since. BMW was a real chance, but Williams refused to integrate completely with BMW. Patrick Head never found the same inspiration as he did with Newey (or before), Sam Michael's success at Jordan was never replicated at Williams, in fact I think he did far more harm than good... and continued to be a negative influence at McLaren.

Meanwhile - Newey went on to design two WDC title winners for McLaren, and almost got another one or two. Still wanting a greater role in a team, he moved to Red Bull, and designed 4 more WDC winners to date (note, at a customer engine team). Williams big turning point to the downside was letting Adrian Newey leave.

 

Guys nobody is indispensable, even Adrian Newey. He is amazing but with the right frame work around somebody else the results would come.

Williams does not have that frame work right.
Pete

 

True enough, but look at Williams lack of success since Newey. They've tried many different technical directors or chief designers, different frameworks, and they haven't had the right person, people, or setup. Meanwhile, McLaren has had various successes in the same 97+ timeframe, Newey has had success with two different teams, Ross Brawn has had success with 3 different teams (Ferrari, Brawn nee Honda, Mercedes). Look at the superstar technical team that Brawn recruited and assembled at Mercedes, which has resulted in two, going on three, dominating WDC and WCC titles. Couldn't Williams have opened the pocketbook and hired just one of Paddy Lowe, Aldo Costa, Bob Bell? Instead they stuck with Sam Michaels for way too long, then decided that Felipe Massa's minder, Rob Smedley, was able to do more than coach a has-been race driver.

To their credit, Pat Symonds is actually a capable technical wizard... but Williams seems to be working their way through the budget-priced ex-cheaters list, having hired Symonds when his Renault crashgate sanction expired, to replace Mike Coughlan, who was hired out of the disgrace of the McLaren spygate scandal.

 

3 teams: Williams, Mclaren, Red Bull...and did well in his early days with underfunded teams, IMO.

 

I think the scenario would have been quite different if BMW had been able to stay with Williams. The team knew how to win then, and success would have followed.
When BMW moved with Sauber, they must have soon realised that this was leading nowhere, so they decided to cut their loss and leave F1 altogether.
Also, BMW has a strong presence in touring car, which is their natural environment, I think.

You cannot say that BMW "chickened out"; manufacturers come and go in F1, to suit their corporate strategy, and also reflect the economic situation at any moment.

Renault, Mercedes, Ford, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Peugeot came and left F1 like a yo-yo in the last 50 years.

 

I Think Williams is doing well. Frank is as excited as ever during each race and wants to win.

Bottas fizzled as Ferrari's golden boy in the wings, and Massa has outperformed Ferrari's golden boy Alonso at McLaren.

The rumors of Jenson Button jumping ship to board Williams will be a good move for him. Too many bugs at McLaren/Honda with Ron lying about everything. Frank Williams is honest.

 

He'll never win as a Mercedes customer car. He needs to hop on the Honda bandwagon and hope they succeed with their development. Other than that, they're just midpack. I'd rather take a gamble and hope for success than be midpack.