The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

There are some fine barn find stories out there, but this one is a little too difficult to believe. One of the rarest and most valuable ferraris in the world hiding in plain sight, and in the possession of a renowned ferrari collector and restorer, yet ultimately sold as a kit car? Maybe it could be possible before the 80's boom, but you're talking a few million dollar oversight by a guy that wouldn't make that kind of oversight...

That'd be like Jim going to all this trouble getting it ferrari certified as 0846 and then turning around and selling it....as a kit car.

Then again, maybe that's why DP doesn't want to talk about it...

 

Did MM say in his own words that he saw the number on the chassis?

(I read the above posts and it's a bit hard to be clear which words are his and which were added by other parties).

(I think it's clear MM saw the paperwork with the number on it.)

 

Regardless of whether there are any remains of 0846 in JG's car, i think solving the mystery of what happened to the remains post Ferrari throwing in the scrap pile is an interesting question...and might lead to something noteworthy...

 

Piper may well entertained privately the possibility that the car he was selling contained original parts of 0846 chassis, but for him to make any such claims, whether as a "nudge nudge, wink wink" or in a contract would have placed the burden of proof on him. I think it was far simpler and safer for Piper to sell it as a "replica" and avoid any potential problems.

And I can understand why Piper doesn't comment now,
If he comes out now and states it's a "replica" then he may well be at odds with what Ferrari are about to say, and if he say's it's original, then burden of proof falls back on him. No upside for Piper to get involved , better for Piper to say nothing, which is what he has consistently done.

Finally when you consider human nature ( people are lazy ), it's also possible that the "unknown frame builder " in Italy simply took a short cut. Instead of building 3 frames for scratch for Piper, they repaired a discarded frame and built 2 new ones - the end result is the same, the client receives 3 frames, all freshly painted.... and perhaps Piper suspected they did this ?

It will be interesting to see what Ferrari say

M

 

IF Jim´s car is indeed chassis 003, how come Mauro Forghieri recognized some parts of the real 0846 in the front of the car!!?
Did david Piper built a replica and added some bits of the real thing? what for? makes no sense to me...on the other hand, Steve pictures an arguments also make a lot of sense....

 

But this story cannot be put back together without those who actually did it telling us what they have done...forget it (Perhaps someone at the factory knows; and knew all along...).

Rgds

 

Re-read the thread. Actually MF said the front looks worse than the rear part in terms of reflecting the original configuration. As we know now the rear does not match either.

 

IF he did not actually just state what the car is and always has been: Replica built by/for him. If it talks like a duck, if it walks like a duck....it might be a duck.

Maybe DP was just telling the plain truth and sold a replica for a fraction of the price of the real thing?! My guess is that at that stage he couldnt even imagine that one day someone would claim his creation was based on the long lost P car.

100% agree. Nothing to gain for him by getting involved at this point.

 

Wouldn't there be any documentation for these chassis? I suppose back then they were not worth as much as now, especially if they are replicas built by someone other than Ferrari. But, he should still have paperwork.

Perry

 

Didn't Piper have a pretty substantial fire at a garage/lockup of his in the last few years? Hopefully there were some interesting things that survived that may be of use someday.

 

Problem is that if you base the facts around what Marcel said/saw in Switzerland in the 70s then Piper at some point actually owned the chassis of 0846 and clearly knew that when filling out the carnet!

Why then use that chassis for a replica and sell it to Jim years later at a fraction of its true value?, when Piper owned all the components needed to rebuild it back to as it was before the 67 Le Mans fire and then sell it for many £ millions more as the real deal?

Even if there had been jiggery pockery with carnets and customs duties years and years before, the extra value of the car being the real 0846 would have far outweighed any overdue duties.

Plenty of current high value cars had a shady periods during those days as they crossed borders

None of it stacks up, its just a nice replica, built as a replica and sold as a replica.

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If I was good at the internet I would have an arrow pointing up!)

To me this is the strongest/weakest argument for MM seeing 0846. So if we take it that he did see it, and the car as a few want to believe in 1977 in Switzerland. If David Piper had 0846, put it down on paperwork... why would he build the car into a replica and sell it as replica when he could have majorly profited? By this account he would have KNOWN what he had. Its not that he didn't know what he had and sold it and now is ashamed that the someone else besides him is benefiting. I guess its just very difficult to see that happening

And then he just blatantly states that the car is a replica.

Its tough.

 

This post succinctly sums up 430 pages. Piper wouldn't have unknowingly or "wink wink" sold 0846 as a replica - and for replica money.

The only question now is does Jim G have enough money and enough (relevant) sway with Ferrari to get them to call this replica 0846? I can't imagine anyone at Ferrari wants to go that far - especially if the 0846 chassis is still floating around after being sold in 1977.

 

Which could also explain why Piper is adamant that 003 is not 0846, as he probably knows exactly where the original chassis of 0846 is!

 

Bring me to the popcorn factory!
More please!
429-430 pages and we are not even close!

 

What utter rubbish! Why should he still have paperwork? Have you got receipts for stuff you bought 40 years ago?
Also, this was business, and in England at the time the legal necessity was to keep paperwork seven years. After that you throw it out. I had my own business in the 1980s but I don't have any of the paperwork. Why would I?
Nathan

 

I understand. I do have a problem with throwing things out. I have every bit of paperwork for my TR6, and that is a far cry from a Ferrari, real or replica. I only thought about documentation. That is always an important part of a Ferrari. Perhaps he saved some documentation. I don't know.

Perry

 

Not important for a replica, only if it's a real Ferrari!
Nathan

 

Oh for Pete's sake just [size=+100]WAIT![/size]

Lets see what Jim's and/or Ferrari's document says instead of rehashing the same old stuff. Man what are you guys like at Christmas? ... do you have to get up at 00:01 in the morning
Pete

 

No! Jim claims to have it writing now dated this month. I say let's see it NOW!!! Why wait???

 

Yes, let's see the exact documents.

No summations of what someone interprets what it says.

Let's see its exact words. If there are statements in both English and Italian let's see both; no half information.

Let's understand what was investigated to reach whatever conclusion is stated.

Let's see who it is that is making the written statement. Is Classiche part of this?

If it exists then show it in its entirety. Deciding that it will take months to be ready is sure suspicious.

 

I don't have to get up... im already up... its everyone else in the house that has to get up

 

"Stuff"?! We're talking about a car here, not a toaster or some consumable inventory item. If you own a Ferrari 308, do you throw out the title or the purchase paperwork because the car is more than 7 years old, or because you've owned it for more than 7 years? No, I thought not. Even in 1977, a paper trail for provenance for a classic racing Ferrari would have been important, especially when Customs may want proof that all appropriate duties and taxes were paid on an imported vehicle or parts. I suppose if I imported 0846 to Britain via Switzerland, then subsequently sold 0846, I wouldn't keep the paperwork - I'd pass them on with the vehicle. Since Piper hasn't sold 0846 as such, it would be reasonable to assume that he would still have the paperwork from the import via Switzerland.

 

"if we take it that he did see it"? Wait, now you're questioning Marcel Massini's recorded statements from 2005 about what he saw? You're seriously questioning the validity of the statements of one of the foremost Ferrari historians? Why, because it doesn't jive with your theory and Piper's statements? (wherein you say that Piper "just blatantly states that the car is a replica", so that must be gospel truth?)

If you believe the statements of Massini and Piper are at odds and can't both be true, then it comes down to who you're going to believe?

Massini: "David Piper showed me a carnet document for importing a Ferrari chassis numbered 0846, along with a P car, in Switzerland in 1977"
Piper: "DP0003 is a replica. I don't want to discuss it any further. Period"