The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The only thing that is comical is the naivety that you display.

There is a wealth of information away from the internet. Lets wait and see if JG has come across some more of it.

 

Answer me this simple question Art:-

You are clearly a pro "Jims car is the original 0846"

So which chassis is in his car?

a) the one Marcel saw in Switzerland in the 1970s, clearly marked as 0846 on a carnet and fully linked to David Piper (therefore Piper knew the chassis of the original 0846 existed, even back then)

b) Or the claimed Meade recycled chassis that someone made up into a replica chassis that eventually got sold to Piper, who it is then claimed was none the wiser that he actually had ownership of parts of the original 0846 and later sold it to Jim as a replica?

a) or b) Art, which one?, simple question? one word answer?.........It clearly cannot be both.

 

With regards carnets, these are simply customs passports for items, they are not import documents, any car that goes into a country under a carnet has to then leave again by a specific time.

Cars cannot remain indefinitely in a country under a carnet, someone has to pay the duties eventually or the car has to return back to the country of its origin.

Carnet fees on a genuine P4 would have been far higher than for a replica, so there would be no sense in trying to ship a replica under the details of a genuine car, if fact the opposite would have been cheaper.

 

Maybe because you don't have enough information to be aware of how suspicious this claim is.

 

Lets wait and (c) what JG has to disclose in the coming months, if anything at all.

 

Lets assume for now nothing comes of that, why not humour us as to why you CURRENTLY and previously believe the original chassis of 0846 is contained within Jims car.

On that basis a) or b) ?

 

Paul,

No dog in this race, but...
Could it simply mean that a carnet with the number 0846 existed in 1977, but without the original chassis of 0846.
And that this carnet helped to speed-up the transfer of what was actually DP 0003 new chassis, made in Modena, but without any part of the original 0846?
And that anything original from the original frame stamped 0846 (the true, the one, the only) had in fact actually not only been discarded, but also destroyed?

Rgds

 

Some time ago someone posted pics of 0846 after the fire...it didn't look so bad!!
It's hard to believe they would have simply destroyed it...i mean, even back than this cars were not without value and i'm pretty sure someone would have wanted it.

 

The above and its details sound very familiar indeed. Has Mr Glickenhaus/Napolis merely placed his car in the Ferrari web site "My Garage" again?

The attached are from pages 110 - 112 of Mr Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I can see no logical reason for that Nerofer?

If you wanted a chassis made for a race car anywhere in the world then simply place your order, have it shipped to you and pay duties in your home country.

it is just a load of tubes welded together, that is all customs would see, and as long as you presented an invoice the import duties would be based on that value.

A carnet would be needed for an item showing a chassis or ID number to enter a country for a short period of time then move on back out, the fees are based on its value in case you vanished in that country with the item in which case you don't get your money back.

If someone was trying to sneak a valuable car/chassis into/out of a country then pretending its a replica is a cheaper way of going about it, not the other way around.

The question is, was a carnet being compiled for the chassis to be taken out of Switzerland where it was based, in which case they may not have gone ahead with the plan and the chassis remained there, in which case your question has validity as it may not have been stamped at that time, or was the carnet actually presented to Swiss customs in order to get the chassis into the country, in which case the border authorities would have wanted to see a stamp/tag on the chassis corresponding to the number 0846 and any other paperwork relating to the ownership of a chassis bearing that number such as purchase documents/race entry etc.

 

As an example, ship a 250 GTO into a country under a carnet claiming it as a replica, pay a low carnet fee, once inside put the replica ID onto an actual replica and have that shipped back out of the country and get your carnet fee back.

Voila one 250 GTO inside a country without paying huge import duties, put the genuine 250 GTO ID back onto the car and race it to your hearts content for years to come.

In time its all forgotten about and you can export it whenever you like as the real deal.

The only sticking point is if the car needs to be registered for road use, these days you need to show the import paperwork for the actual car you want to register, back then less of an issue, and even less so if its a race car.

 

Well, the question I had in mind is that, in so far as I remember Marcel Massini's words correctly - and please correct me if I'm wrong....he saw a carnet marked for 0846 and a P chassis, but that had no number punched on it / no plate.
Therefore, we have a slight presumption that the carnet and chassis may have had a connection, be related one to the other, etc...in some manner. But there might also have been completly independant, isn't it?
Agreed: it seems to make no sense at all; but nevertheless...

Rgds

 

I don't think Marcel said the chassis did not have a number stamped on it, just that he did not inspect to it in order to see if one was present or not. Why would he back then as a casual observer.

 

ok... so genuine question. I do not have the answer to this and it may have been covered.

If the car had to leave... did it? Or wouldn't it have to?

Also, I am not sure fees would be higher on a P4 vs a replica, or significantly higher at that point in history especially on just an old crashed chassis with no engine in it and no body. It would be valued at next to nothing. A new chassis would look well new and possibly be valued higher by layman customs officials (I have imported and exported many cars and parts and you would be shocked at when they pick on. I imported a car once and the seller unbeknownst to me stuffed the car with spares. I got a call from customs and they were pissed about a new bearing. I said what bearing are you talking about. I had to fill out a form and describe the bearing, what kind of bearing it was, origin of manufacturer, inner and outter diameter, was it ball bearing was it needle bearing it was a 2 or 3 page questionaire. I couldn't exactly answer the questions because I wasn't there and had no idea what they were talking about. I finally got a customs agen to text me a picture of it so I could fill out the form and turn it in. When the car finally showed up... there were about 400 pounds of spare parts in the car. hundreds of spares that I didn't fill out customs paperwork for or declare. And all they cared about was one bearing in a box on a stack of parts that had no paperwork. my mind was blown. The bearing lobbiest must be EXCELLENT) .

What should be answered is... could you get a carnet on a chassis/car on a "new" chassis or a chassis from an unspecified manufacture. If you couldn't get one this would be a clue as to why 0846 may have been filled out on the form. I am unfamiliar with swiss customs in 1977

 

Yes. Absolutely. While not entire legal. It is done regularly. Some people when importing and exporting have found it easier to give a simple answer vs a story or explanation. If you answer the questions the agent checks the box and moves on. I hate that people do this, but it has been done for decades and done frequently especially back then

 

I would also ask for clarification. muirasv stated that jim applied 0846 to the car correct? This stamping was not found on the chassis. It was added to the chassis? Is this correct?

 

From what I understand when Piper sold this chassis to Glickenhaus, if there was a chassis number, it was #900 as given it by David Piper.Whether the chassis had the number 900 stamped on it or not is not of great importance.What is important is that Piper didn't place any importance in it at the time. Enzo Ferrari had decided he wanted no part of any of these particular P series cars any more.When David Piper came to him with an offer to take the remains of these P3/4 machines still in the possession of the Scuderia Ferrari, E.F. said take everything as you see fit. Of course there is no documented report of any of this.The only two persons involved in the meeting never confided, as far as we know, in any way, on even the most basics of what was agreed to between them.Now back to the David Piper/Jim Glickenhouse meetings. Again the same scenario.No minutes or other records or witnesses . OK, so this chassis has no original Scuderia Ferrari sn plate but Mr Glickenhaus has established that much of it did come from "#0846. In a nut shell this pretty much what we, on the outside looking in, know. And,if like Forghieri, Piper is relying on his memory of what happened 50 + years ago, if he should suddenly decide to speak on the subject, I very much doubt if really would clear up anything. I a way it may be just as well if David Piper stays mum. As the Chinese dry cleaner once said "no tiki, no laundry" In this particular scenario there is "no tiki" So.................... tonga's crew

 

Absolutely not true.

 

Why do I get the idea that someone could say that 0846 left the factory painted red and someone would completely contradict that in this thread?



PDG

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

Tonga you are at cross purposes, the part of my reply you have quoted refers to when Marcel saw a chassis in Switzerland in 1977 that he was informed was that of the original 0846.

I was not referring to the time Marcel sat in Jims car in recent years.

 

I believe that is the story. I believe he never saw a plate. I do believe he saw paperwork with the number on it and believe he felt it was a P chassis from viewing it. I don't recall if the number was exactly 0846, for some reason I recall it more like 00846, but 846 nonetheless. I may be wrong. It has been awhile.

 

Yes. The chassis came without a stamp.

The stamp that is on it now was placed by Napolis.

I don't believe Piper had a stamp on it either. But I may be wrong?

 

Please enlighten me of this information then.

Thanks in advance.

 

No. But look very closely when this alleged "statement" comes out. Who exactly would be part of this verification. Know the players that count.

Jeff

 

You know something or absolutely nothing

Everyone in this entire thread seems to make these statements. Have facts ? please tell?