The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Yes and I decline.

Just because the peanut gallery does not see does not mean it does not exist.

 

We have no evidence for or against any sort of Ferrari approval for #0846 so the intense debate about the approval is all very silly. Patience is a virtue and all that........

 

Mr Glickenhaus states above the written statements already exist along with dispositive documents that exist now so to state this and then say that you will publish those statements and documents in "several months" would lead anyone to be suspicious, especially in light of there being no or disproved evidence the car is, and actual evidence the car is not 0846.

 

Marcel said "assume linked to Piper," you've interpreted that to mean "fully linked to Piper"

Marcel chose his words very carefully when he posted at the start of this thread, and I've quoted his post to avoid further speculation.
He saw paperwork
Made no statement about chassis tags
Described it as a "p3 or P4"
Took no pictures
Said paperwork referred to 0846

M

 

state something ? cliches and hidden meanings


useless

 

Just as Mr Glickenhaus's statement to publish the proof of his Ferarri written statements, that allegedly exist now, in "several months" is useless.

 

This isn't a JG Wentworth commercial.

Reasons are plentiful as to who, what, when, where and why.

Besides, as 0846 isn't the only significant vehicle he owns, he's a busy boy, not a busybody.


via Tapatalk

 

Riiiiiggght.

A simple one post explanation is FAR more time consuming than a planned what... obfuscation ? Who knows. History has shown that JG "builds" a case based on carefully crafted marketing...not pure logic or scientific process.

 

The JG apologist Mod strikes again

Completely useless post

 

Who's to say that Jim wont come out with a piece of paper stating that everyone from MM to Piero-Luigi Ferrari and even the pope agree its #0846 or maybe he will come up with sweet stuff all. Either way will it settle the discussion, of course not. As GrayTA says, far too many people will look at a blue car and claim its red and will find their ego's hurt for either side to conclusively win this debate......

 

I absolutely disagree with this. Mr Glickenhaus has never come up with anything that's not full of holes. People have only mainly questioned those holes with sound logic throughout the whole existence of the thread. You and Gray TA imply that the contradictions have been unjust, which most certainly is not the case.

 

Nope, just implying that a 100% level of proof seems to be required of either side and that is never going to happen which leaves the discussion fun but not a little pointless.

 

Quick question. If in fact 0846 was discovered, say tomorrow. What would it be worth?

 

Very difficult to answer that due to many factors and a quick answer isn't really possible. However, if the physical remains of the chassis of 0846 did turn up after nearly 50 years it would only be worth a fraction of one of the other P4s due to the number 0846 being cancelled by mother Ferrari. "....this number do not exist anymore for every Ferrari expert." Mauro Forghieri.

 

An original P4 would likely top $40 mil. You could work it down from there.

 

You didn't read his entire statement? Particularly relevant portion quoted above your quote. The existing documentation, which if he published material now you will insist is missing and incomplete and thus some sort of conspiracy to hide and defraud and incorrect because some details are missing... get serious. He at least stated that he WILL publish when the full documentation is complete.

Have you ever had Classiche certify a car? You figure you can have them inspect the car, and the documents will show up next week? How about you phone Ferrari up, and demand that they publish JG's documentation NOW, because dammit it's a conspiracy otherwise? Obviously, we can now never trust anything Ferrari says about 0846, because they delayed the paperwork, so Steve, Jeff, Paul, will insist that it doesn't matter if Ferrari Classiche or whoever at Ferrari states that it is 0846, they all know better than Ferrari, and Ferrari is mistaken. After all, they took too long to publish the full documentation, so that means they can't be trusted.

The insistence from the JG haters that JG MUST publish NOW, just because, because, well, they DEMAND it, is juvenile beyond belief. Why aren't you insisting that Piper MUST publish NOW all his knowledge of that 1977 sighting of 0846, and publish NOW all the background information of DP0003, why it's different than 0900 and 0900a, why/how/when/who the engine mountings were hacked up, why he built 3 replicas when Enzo only authorized one replica, why he claimed a serial number 0900 when Ferrari already used that number on a real car of it's own manufacturer, etc. etc.

Oh, Piper said he doesn't want to talk about it, so that's OK, we'll just ignore all those outstanding inconsistencies and accept that if Piper says it's DP0003, then we don't care about all the missing parts of the back story and take his word verbatim.

 

Of course I read and did not miss the bit about the additional information. I have taken the time and trouble to ring David Piper on a number of occasions. What have you done? Absolutely nothing. You are demanding this information from David so why don't you get in touch with him?

The reason that DP0003 is different to the other chassis is only because it's had a different type of engine correctly fitted to it, the first of which was the 412P and/or the 312 F1 24 valve engine and then later adapted less than ideally with the bolt ons to fit a 312 F1 36 valve engine. 0900a will be different now because Max Wakefield fitted a Lamborghini engine to it. Don't you get it that the chassis will be different engine mountings wise when differing engines are fitted?

Have you not seen my post about the bulkhead tubes being the same on DP0003 as 0900a? You really are absolutely pathetic.

David Piper's telephone number is very easy to find so I will leave it to you to ask him the information that you require of him. Actually to save you the trouble of looking it up I will pm you his number now.

 

Following on from my post above I've just pm'd you David Piper's telephone number. Good luck with getting all the information you require and I look forward to you posting it here today.

 

Maybe Jim shouldn't of jumped the gun and did all this home work before hand. That.s little juvenile ...........?

 

There are 2 considerable things I have to say, even though I suggested that everybody just wait; they are:

1. I find it somewhat amazing that Marcel Massini, being the Ferrari investigator that he is, did not go and inspect the chassis number in 1977 in Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson, Switzerland. I can only assume he was NOT permitted to, but then why show him the customs booklet and the chassis in the first place? Confusing.

2. I am not sure when Piper built #0900, but the earliest date I can find in http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/recreations-non-period-rebodies/439633-piper-p4-0900-just-what-3.html is 1979. So the chassis discussed in point 1 above is earlier or around the same time. Now if that frame really was #0846 why would he built #0900? Surely even David Piper, who is a racer not a historian, would have restored #0846 and run a 100% real P4 Ferrari.

I believe both these things point to that frame Marcel saw not actually being #0846.
Pete
ps: And sorry just because Ferrari Spa crossed #0846 off their books, does not mean the physical components suddenly disappear or become invalid, or not a P4 Ferrari. We are talking about mere book work, versus the real world. And guess what if, if the chassis of #0846 does reappear then Ferrari Spa's book work is wrong, NOT the other way around.

 

Thanks Pete,

That's more or less what I had in mind yesterday, but was unable to formulate it eloquently.
No-one is doubting Marcel Massini's word, there is no reason to. What I understand is that he saw a carnet which stated # 0846, and a Ferrari P chassis, for which he could not / was not able to, etc...see its plate or number. That chassis could have been, or not, related to the carnet with the #0846 number; if it was related to the carnet, that could have been for different reasons. Should Marcel M. have been able to check the chassis number, we would have more specific informations.

Rgds

 

And thanks for your PS also, Pete.
Book keeping is one thing, the car is another. They have crossed the number 0846 from their register, considering that the car has achieved its life; so the number is discarded; that doesn't mean that the remants has been melted or destroyed, only that the number has been crossed. Should they have in front of their eyes enough evidence that 0846 has survived (should this be the case) they could re-instate the number with a stroke of the pen, should they decide to do so. It is their full priviledge.

Rgds

 

I notice that you're not asking Napolis the same questions about his latest statement.
Nathan

 

There are further quotes that Piper was present at the same time as Marcel, those though could well be Jims interpretation of events inc the claims Cervan was a Piper company.

I dont plan to trawl back through all this dross to find them, but you are welcome to