The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It seems the usual is still being applied by Wax.
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A Ferrari classiche restored 0846 would be worth far more to collectors than probably me doing it! figure a price somewhere between the two if it did ever re appear, 0858 is a good bench mark.

 

There is no rush for Jim to produce anything, but until he does then the car is still Piper 003 as purchased. The onus is on him to prove otherwise, if he is in no rush then that is his call.

 

If MF suddenly posts on facebook in Italian that whilst having a catch up Vino with Luigi the chief fabricator from back in the day, along with Franco the head mechanic one of them suddenly recalls moving the engine a few mm or so in 0846 with a couple of lashed up brackets prior to Le Mans, and when shown Jims chassis they say Mama Mia that's my work! then bingo I am a believer, as would many others no doubt.

If however it actually turns out to be Maria the high school intern charged with loading up customer supplied data on the customer care depts website then I am less convinced.

 

Nice attempt at deflection, and it's suddenly "dross" when it doesn't suit. Marcel was quite specific in what he stated regards Cervan, reproduced in it's entirety to avoid misinterpretation.

Again, you are the only one making the "fully linked to Piper claim" , it's pure speculation by you to suit a point of view.

Marcel chose his words very carefully when he posted at the start of this thread.

M

 

Not defection at all, there are two quotes from Marcel if I recall correctly, not just the one you list, along with numerous JG versions of that event in Switzerland, and yes 99% of the words on this epic thread are simple dross and rehash.

If I have a spare hour I will find them for you and then judge your subsequent comments based on those.

 

I don't understand all this excitement over carnets and Massini. No amount of guess-work or theorising is going to change the facts - the photographic evidence produced by Miurasv proves that the chassis in Napolis car is not the one in 0846 at Daytona 1967.
Nathan

 

I would agree with that as one of the many negative factors I stated of this car and a reason why a quick answer wasn't really possible. Those are very big factors.

Has an important Ferrari come to auction or sold in the past where the number was cancelled by Ferrari to measure the effect on the value? Without the number the car is not the car it was. No auction house or vendor would be able to market it or advertise it as 0846. All that could be stated is that it contains a few chassis parts from 0846 which is certainly not a positive thing due to the accident and fire damage history of the chassis 0846.

 

Not enough time to verify the accuracy of what you posted ? "judge my comments" LOL..

Again, you are the only one making the "fully linked to Piper claim" , it's pure speculation by you to suit a point of view and it's careless at least, or perhaps deliberate.

I've already posted Marcel's comments re the carnet in my previous posts in this thread, here they are again...

M

 

Fair enough, you echo my sentiments entirely. Only time will tell

 

Utterly comical, did you even read Marcels opening sentence?!

Originally Posted by Marcel Massini View Post
Here are my 2 cents in this never ending pissing contest:
In 1977 I visited Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson, Switzerland. There was a P3 or P4 car and David Piper showed me a customs carnet (customs booklet) which stated the chassis number 0846

I will write it again for you

"David Piper showed me a customs carnet (customs booklet) which stated the chassis number 0846" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So David Piper clearly knew in 1977 about a chassis claiming to be 0846 he was there with Marcel in Switzerland looking at it with him, and it was Marcel who stated he assumed the Cervan company was David Pipers!

So Mike I ask you the same question as I did Art, which is the chassis in Jims car a) or b)

 

So for what reason would Franco and Luigi change the bulkhead tubes then, which happen to be exactly the same shape as those in Piper's other replica 0900a in the pic(s) below? Glickenhaus Piper DP0003 chassis in 3rd colour pic. 0846? ROFL!!!!
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It's all in Marcel's quoted posts.
There was a carnet with the number 846 in the name of Cervan company. Massini assumed Cervan was related to Piper, and then points out that "I do NOT know if this is or was a company owned by Piper or not. I also do not know if anybody, Piper, Cervan Corporation, Franco Sbarro or anybody else presented that Carnet to Swiss customs or not. I do not know WHO imported the P3 or P4 chassis I saw to Switzerland, but a chassis was definitely there (at Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson, Switzerland)."

Note that Marcel did not claim he saw a specific chassis number, he said "There was a P3 or P4 car" You are assuming it was the car mentioned in the carnet.

So I believe there was a carnet with the number 0846 in the name of Cervan Corp, and that the Cervan company may (or may not) have been a company related to Piper, and that a P3 or P4 chassis with an undetermined chassis number was present at the time Massini saw the carnet.

Bottom line is that the carnet is an interesting piece of information but without anything more concrete than proximity linking the carnet to the" P3 or P4 car" Massini saw in 1977 it does not help establish anything.

I agree that Piper would have been aware of the 0846 number, not only because of the carnet, but also due to his general involvement with these cars (racing & links to Ferrari ).

 

It would great if you annotated the photos with the relevant text, or somehow linked the text to a photo or perhaps compiled all the photo's and text in to single document.

M

 

Mike you clearly questioned my statement that there was direct link between David Piper and the chassis Marcel saw in Switzerland in 1977 identified as 0846 on the carnet and accused me of making a connection when you claimed there was none!

You cannot get a more direct link between that chassis and David Piper when he was stood with Marcel when looking at that actual chassis in that location at that time in 1977.

Retraction? apology?

So I ask again is it a) or b) in your opinion or are you avoiding answering just like Art?

 

The only clear winner here is Rob Lay. Damn, he's good.

 

That's exactly what I meant.

Marcel stood beside a "P3 or P4 car". There was a carnet with 0846. Marcel did not identify the chassis as 846 (or any number),. Aside from proximity to the carnet, what evidence is there that it was a specific car ?.

No

I am only avoiding making things up.
Muira makes a compelling argument supported by research and photo's.

 

So which car won Daytona 67, if you believe that 0846 has been erased from history?

Your supposition is wishful thinking in dreaded anticipation of Ferrari possibly validating JG's car. Ferrari's bookkeeping post of crossing 0846 off the list didn't destroy the car, the chassis was left sitting in a scrap heap by all accounts.

If the physical remains of 0846 chassis turned up, and are validated as such by Ferrari, then it instantly becomes the most valuable P4 of all because of its provenance. Look at 0384AM for a historic car that was returned to Ferrari as a pile of rust flakes (with a faked serial number 0394AM courtesy Swaters, another wheeler dealer used car salesman), and rebuilt - there's perhaps 10% or less of the original 0384AM present in the rebuilt car, but there's no doubt that it is unchallenged in being recognized as 0384AM restored (after Swaters' serial number fakery was no longer required), no diminished value because it was rebuilt from a few pieces.

Regarding me calling Piper - no, I won't be bothering the man, just as I won't be bothering JG, or MF, or MM - and I am not demanding documentation from any of them right NOW. My point was to highlight, again, the bias, partiality, and hypocrisy of those who post angrily that JG must post his documentation NOW, or else there must be some hidden conspiracy, yet those same people give Piper a blanket pass and carte blanche acceptance of statements that do nothing to establish or clarify the history of this car. In this case, I wasn't actually referring to you, more Jeff and Paul, who have ignored the statement that the documentation from Ferrari is not complete or ready yet they insist it should magically be published now, before it exists in complete form. Those same individuals say with respect to Piper, "he said it's a replica, so we should just trust him implicitly without any corroboration or effort to clear up the controversy with information that Piper possesses".

 

Alright he claims that most of his chassis is 0846. But if you are claiming this is "not true" than back it up with why you think this is not true. It's people like you who have kept me and others from getting involved is this long long ongoing discussion even though I have a file of almost 200 pages on this particular sn. So explain yourself so I can tell you "Absoutly not true" and see how you like it. tonga's crew

 

Mike, What a muppet you are trying to wriggle out of the facts.

So what P3 or P4 chassis was it then? apart from 0846 they were all accounted for?

Are you claiming it was a pure coincidence that a carnet bearing the number 0846 just happened to be in the same proximity as a P3 or P4 chassis along with David Piper and Marcel, all located in the same place in Switzerland at the same time in 1977?????

You are living on fantasy Island, and have the cheek to accuse me of deflection when you won't answer a simple question, either a) or b)?

 

This is why I have stayed away from this discussion. I got involved way back in defending David Piper from a bunch of ignorant yahoos. I am satisfied that my comments were basically accurate and made with the best of intentions.I will have no further comments to make on the subject. tonga's crew

 

Have you even read most of this thread? that is exactly what Steve has been doing, with technical data, period and recent photographs, explanations of his findings etc.

Why not cross reference the 200 pages of the particulars you have for the car with the information Steve has posted and simply prove him wrong with your facts?

 

Well I don't know, and neither do you.

M

 

So before I get to far into my reply

I would like to say you make two good points.

1. yes it takes time for an "offical source" certifying the authenticity of something to compile all of the data. They probably have to talk to their legal department etc... make sure if they are indeed wrong how they wiggle out of it etc... (this is not in reference or implying anything to 0846 its standard business practice for someone certifying something)

2. Jim did say they would publish it.

Why is it taking so long? well I would assume that Jim would put some sort of agreement together with Ferrari that if it doesn't go his way that they can't publish the information themselves, and everything in between Yes and No... can be negotiated on wording. (again I don't intend this as slanderous or biased because its 0846 or Jim. Has ZERO to do with that, who wouldn't want some control in a situation similar to this)

Beyond that...

You state all of those, and they etc... are demanding it be published now. From what I have seen... only one person could be construed as demanding the info be released now. Its not like there is a mob shouting for it. ONE GUY. One guy who has provided the most amount of physical evidence into the topic. While I don't agree with the DEMAND notion... I guess I can understand his enthusiasm. Again, id rather he not DEMAND. He does have probably hundreds of hours and has ruffled many many feathers. Also he feels he has provided the smoking gun and others with less knowledge and understanding challenge him on some pretty superficial arguments. (not saying every argument has been superficial just saying when relating to the emotion of demanding something these trivial arguments could be extremely agitating) Also, Squeaky wheels get grease. In this day in age... if you aren't making some noise... no one pays any attention.

Why doesn't he demand piper to prove DP003. that door is shut. He stated it is a replica. People don't buy what he is saying, Jim agreed it was a replica when he bought it. and now. (or many years ago) is disputing it. It is up to Jim to prove. While he is attempting to prove it... you open yourself up to debate. Debate has happend. evidence counters his claim. Plain and simple.