The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

This I think is the most important tell. It is free of bias. It is just photographic evidence.

 

I'm not sure of what you are getting at?

 

It's pointless to argue about it. Unless photos show up of the chassis in question, we will never know. It could have been 0846, or maybe it was a replica chassis, but they needed a valid SN for the paperwork, so they used 0846 (maybe thinking there was no chance of a conflict because they thought the chassis was destroyed). This event in history, while interesting, provides no useful information without more details.

It's important to bear in mind that, in 1977, the chassis had relatively little economic value. Complete 250 GTO's were selling for about $50k in 1977, so a damaged bare chassis would not have significant value. All of the old race cars sold for next to nothing (often < $10k) in the late 60's and early 70's because they were thought of as old used up race cars. That was changing a bit by 1977, but still a very different mindset, financially and historically, from today.

 

Maybe.

Let's see what comes out.

One thing that has to be known is what I believe solofast said, a lot can change over time with a grinder and a welder.

We have no knowledge of how Piper used or modified these cars. He had P4 Plans. The rear of this chassis is currently believed to be built to P4 spec aft of the bulkhead. If parts of the rear chassis required rebuilding or modifying, they would most likely build that part as they built the others.

Not saying this happened, but there are many possibilities of how the frame could have been modified over the years.

All of which need to be looked into before a conclusion is factual.

Piper had the chassis and it appears modified it while in his use. As to what modifications he did, that would need to be sorted out before I think most would consider picture evidence as fact.

Miura said Piper claims 0003/0846 was made at a different manufacturer than the other two.

I think a very important thing to look into is how are these three chassis similar to each other, how are they different. What modification do we believe Piper did after their original construction. And how close are they to the P4 plans they were supposedly built from?

Only time will tell.

 

I do know that David Piper was there, Marcel confirmed it, which is the direct link he had to it, which you accused me of making up, try wriggling out of that.

 

The chassis is not to P4 spec aft of the bulkhead meaning it is not exactly the same as a P4. P4 PLANS have been used to build this P4 replica chassis and correctly fit a P3 type (412P or 312 F1 24 valve) protruding lug engine, later adapted with bolt on brackets, tubes etc to less than ideally fit a 312 F1 36 valve engine. How many times do I have to say this, Vincent? There are differences which I have explained in previous posts.

David didn't say the other two were made by a different manufacturer. From memory the only one that was made by a different manufacturer was 0900 which he has stated as Manicardi e Mesuri in the 1987 auction description.

 

Following on from my post above, I must clarify that although DP0003 has been built to P4 plans there are differences which indicate that it as a replica.

 

Well photos are non bias. Plane and simple.

I just want to say I appreciate the "adult" conversation we are having in the thread.


So if we can agree, that the rear section of Jims car is "not original" (you may or not be in agreement to this, Im not 100% positive)

What do you think is original and in your opinion how much of a car needs to be left to still be considered the original car? I would say about 50% or more of the frame has been removed/altered. The body is reproduction as is all of the interior all the trim interior and exterior.... what is left? I know for a fact the steering wheel isn't original as I can go put my hands on it right now if I want. Has anyone even looked into the front section to see what is the same. I know we have the infamous weld... but... Id say that is weak supporting evidence and at best a clue. If it wasn't just a weld and is actually a weld to stitch more chassis on... how much of this nose section is original.

At some point we are arguing over literal scraps of a car and then the car being represented as 0846.... which is another argument all together.

This is a questions of opinion/discussion. Not trying to be mean spirited.

I am going to do something I probably shouldn't do. I am going to try to predict what the ferrari letter will say.

0846 was written off of our books due to crash damage blah blah blah

you have purchased a car which you believe is 0846 blah blah blah its beautiful etc...

We have inspected the car. We can not certify that the entire car is original from tip to tale. There is evidence of 0846 in a small section of the car. The chassis was a race car and has subsequently been modified over the years. blah blah blah

It won't get specific on what is and what is not 0846. It will use the cover of modified forgotten about race car as cover for lack of originality.

 

I believe you had said 0003 was made from some chassis manufacturer in Modena. And that it was a different from 0900. Am I wrong?

Are the three Piper frames the same minus these engine mounts?

Are the other two the same as this one, or similar to each other?

The differences in the frames is important to being factual as well as their similarities to each other, as well as their similarities to real P4 and P3.

 

A photo is only valid if the present day frame has not been manipulated. Just because the frame in the old photo appears one way, does not mean the frame has not been modified since. I believe there is even some debate about what Hajduk had modified/removed post Piper years. For the photo to be factual a history of the frame since is required.

Question is, if 0846, who modified the rear to be P4 spec? If Ferrari than much of the rear would be P3/4 0846. Plain and simple. For the photo to be valid proof that the car is not 0003, we need to know more about the Piper years and what happened in the construction and what happened under the knife.

It can still be the remains of 0846 even if it is not configured per the photo.

I believe the body is original Ferrari. But those are other discussions. The only thing that matters in this discussion is if the chassis survived.

 

Such as?

How do these correlate to the other Piper frames?

To the other P4 frames.

How are the frames similar/different from each other. From the P4 plans. And from an actual P4, Strolls, and even a P3.

 

I will publish details in "several months."

 

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

I'm skipping a page here, so maybe this has been answered..when Ferrari scrapped 0846, did they remove the chassis stampings before it was dumped? I'm thinking no..they just dumped it and struck it. Is it at all possible..I know it's out there..that David Piper still has 0846 as possibly spotted in 1977? Could that be why he has been silent?

 

I don't know to be honest. I think I read that allegedly one of the tubes that burned in the 67 Le Mans fire may have been one with the chassis plate on so that's how it may have lost its plate. These chassis must have stampings on tubes other than the one for the plate? I think I've read also that Mr Glickenhaus' team, when they were doing whatever to Modulo, were finding 0864 stampings on the chassis. I remember thinking at the time that he didn't find any 0846 stampings on DP0003 so this was another reason to think it is actually just replica DP0003 and not 0846. I'm sure if David had 0846 we'd have known about it years ago. Why keep it a secret?

 

Well, I could stand corrected that the body is original ferrari. I thought/was under the impression the body was made. I could be COMPLETELY wrong here, perhaps I am confusing it with another car.

What I am pretty confident is, knowing cars pretty well, is that the tubing on Jims car do not match the photos and that there is more "wrong" with the tubing when compared to the period photos that wouldn't have needed to be changed for the engine mounts etc... The arrangement near the bulkhead is completely different and likely would not need the extensive modifying that currently looks present on Jims car.

Its hard to explain and I hope I don't open up Pandora box because I can't effectively communicate my point in writing.

From my interpretation of the photos there are tubes that are in the wrong place that would not nessecarily need to be different in P3 P4 conversion. It is my opinion that those tubes wouldn't have needed to be modified and those wouldn't have been moved if they hadnt needed. This is why I was asking if this is 0846 then the entire back half has been replaced not just modified.... so how much of 0846 is really there... blah blah blah

 

Ok... well I am going to disagree with piper keeping it secret.

I am not going to say that my vote is that piper could have 0846 locked up somewhere or he knows where it is/demise of it.

BUT... a very real possibility, READ: just as possible as 0846 Piper carnet story without anything truly being verified and this is the origin of 0846 becoming 003, is that he does know what happened to it and is keeping his mouth shut.

My experience in classic cars and the people I have brushed shoulders with... this is an ABSOLUTE and VERY REAL POSSIBILITY.

There are some STRANGE cookies out there. AND... people just do WEIRD things for their own strange justifications. I have seen it MANY times. Look at Walter Medlin!!!!!!!!!!!! And look what he owned

Plenty of people don't want people to know what they have sometimes even when its nothing. I don't know if they get some sort of weird charge out of people not knowing or owning a hulk of crap that is near worthless in its current state and they will never have the time or means to get it back to its glory. Ive seen people who desperately need the money... have a significant find sitting I can cash them out on... and they say no. I think some people can't live without the idea of having that object.... its almost if that is their identity. I have seen this SO SO SO many times. Its almost a hoarder mentality.

These kinds of people/situations absolutely exist.

Who knows... maybe piper gets his jollys off knowing his has 0846 in a shoebox and gets a weird twisted thrill out of watching someone try to justify that a car that was a replica is being touted as a real car. Maybe he wants to stuff it in Ferraris face if they were to certify it as real. Maybe he loves the fact that he has a coveted and long lost car/chassis sitting somewhere. Maybe it is even hiding in plain site. I am not buying into this theory... but without a doubt it is a very real possibility. Not likely, but certainly a real deal. Maybe the car never left as it was supposed to and he just buried it in his yard. lol

It is possible that is why he insists so vehemently that it is a replica.

Then again...

 

If the chassis in Switzerland was the original 0846 I doubt Piper actually kept it for long, as mentioned there was little sentiment for such cars back then, and it probably got sold/traded/swapped for something of use to his then current cars, I doubt he had all the components to rebuild it back then, I believe the deal for 0900 and the stockpile of P car parts was carried out at a later date?

The key thing is he knew full well back then about 0846, either its back story or where it ended up, that number was on a carnet in front of him for a reason.

I only keep referring back to that event at it does not correlate with the later claims Piper unknowingly sold 0846 as 003 to Jim.

The initial reason Jim thought 003 was 0846 was the twin engine installation arrangement and that set him on his quest, that key initial element has been debunked now by the KL period photos from Daytona, without that being fact then the rest just unravels into "he said/she said" there is no more concrete evidence so far.

Steel tubes would not have melted in the Le Mans fire, they are far more resilient than that, so that would not have been the reason the tube bearing the chassis number potentially ended up missing.

I don't think anyone on this thread really knows the details what happened to the damaged car after Le Mans, it was allegedly stripped of its components and the chassis dumped on the scrap pile either whole or in cut up bits, and along with the chassis plate or minus it.

This ties in with Ferrari making no claim to it, the metal came under the ownership of the scrap man after that, it was no longer theirs.

The simple fact is the chassis in Jims car is very different to the pics of the one at Daytona, and way beyond just the engine mounting arrangement, and there would have been no need to make such subtle changes to those tube arrangements during the short racing life of 0846, it was the runt of the litter once the full P4's started being used.

You know what I think deep down Jim even knows this now but has gone so far down the road he maybe cannot see what is fact and what is hope any more, we have all been there flogging a dead horse at some point in our lives and when you take a step back and take another look at everything in the cold light of a new day realisation eventually dawns.

Sure the magic evidence to support his claims may appear soon but it will need to be very clear and direct from the source for it to be accepted by most, I do hope there is no more smoke and mirrors, interpretations of words/events etc just clear and undisputable facts, facts, facts backed up by photographs.

Problem is though that if it was out there it would have no doubt been presented to Marcel by now and had his stamp of acceptance for all the world to see and read, hopefully that is also part of the back room work that is currently going on.

 

Just asking but while I agree with the first paragraph, how does Mr John Hadjuk's comments about chassis damage matching the crash records fit with your paragraph 2?......

 

Has John ever spoken directly or put in his own written words his findings? so far from what I have read its been either via Jim or Steve and both have conflicting versions, which sort of cancel each other out. You would have to ask him directly in order to get a definitive answer.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

This is also another red herring in this story. There are no known photos AFAIK of the dismantled original 0846 chassis following the accidents at the TF and Le Mans that show the extent of the damage and/or how it was repaired. And JH was not there in 1966/7 to inspect it either. So this is lousy "evidence" at best....DP003 also has some bent pipes and repaired crash damage...so what? About 90% of all old racers do.

To make a real connection to the original 0846 chassis you would need to come up with photos that show the extent and location of the accident damage back then and link these to the repairs visible on DP003 today. Anything else is just coincidence, someone's personal opinion or vague guesses unfortunately.

 

Ok you had better explain this. I will look forward to hearing where and when you think Jim's chassis was born and originally was created and for whom. I'll be waiting! tonga's crew

 

John Hadjuk knows how the accidents happened and where. Any man with his qualifications would know the impact to the chassis that would result from those accidents.

Bring 100 cars to 100 body shops and 99 shops would be able to tell you how the accident occurred to 99 of them. this is what these people are experts at. Similar to seeing a blood spray and knowing how the bullet hit and from where.

To discount his opinion, mostly without an explanation from Piper of how this damage occurred, is amateur hour.

Hadjuk is the one who thought this to be 0846. This is the answer he gave.

The most recent answer he has given is that Miura completely tried to lead the questioning to his desired conclusion. And that he thought Miura's theories were missguided.

IMO, this confirms Hajduk's belief, his expert informed belief, that this is indeed 0846 and also leads doubt into MF's answers. MF's answers were most likely lead by Miura IMO. Until MF is questioned by a non Biased source that is fluent in Italian I don't feel the answers are valid either way.

To discount the Hajduk belief and not vette out why there was a chassis identified as 0846 in Switzerland a couple years before these frames were built, is to leave this open ended and that is not a firm conclusion of anything.

Hajduk is the catalyst for the belief that this is 0846 solely due to this accident damage. It had nothing to do with the motor mounts from my recollection. Correct me if I am wrong?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/87454-after-crash-0846-1966-targa-florio.html

 

I say from both Grassy Knoll and Schoolbook depository.

 

I believe Hadjuk has the expertise to make a qualified opinon over you. Am I wrong or does your expertise out qualify him?

Until Hadjuk's theory is vetted it is amateur hour to discount it. Unless you can prove it wrong? Can you?