The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I agree somewhat. But, there are still grey areas to be figured out without Jim's new findings that are relevant to Jim's findings.

Such as what has just been revealed about who built 0003/0846 for Piper. Steve has stated that Piper claims the other two chassis were constructed by a different manufacturer than 0003/0846 and this is also relevant info that could be uncovered without the Jim findings and will help validate or discredit what Jim has to say.

I don't think their is any harm or sticking around for the argument only, if the discussion is leading to new information, as it just has.

Although I do not agree with Miura's methodology, I do give him credit for presenting his case.

 

no key point here

 

Key point is this.

It is known that a chassis identified as either a P3 or P4 by a well known Ferrari expert and was noted as 0846 on paper, was seen in Switzerland in 77 most likely en route to Piper.

If this is so, what happened to said chassis? Did it just evaporate into thin air?

Either it was destroyed, hid away, or was built into something else.

What happened to this chassis identified as 0846 long after that chassis was "destroyed" in 67?

How did this chassis exist way before the date Piper built his chassis, but now it no longer exists?

 

Further studies of the DP0003 chassis reveal that one of the bulkhead engine mounts does not fit the engine, necessitating a bracket to secure the engine at this point. Pic is one of Wolfgang's I blew up.
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Thanks for your insight. I would like to hear what Hajduk thinks of the damage and why he believes the damage was indeed due to the Targa Florio accident.

 

I take it that you will post proof and the name of the person that has passed on that information in 'several' weeks/months?

 

Steve,

I believe the real chassis has a spacer on one side as well.

 

Wow! Thanks for the link. I have always wondered what happened to that car after seeing it being built!

 

It has spacers but that's an angled bracket which acts as a spacer too as the chassis engine mounting hole does not line up with the hole in the engine.

 

Yes, I understand your explanation better now. Thanks for the insight

 

Interesting, signed and dated? how come it is not in the pdf? not much use otherwise as no one else can read its contents.

 

it keeps the thread going

 

A 3/4 scale P4 with a Dino engine would be likely faster than an original P4 ... a bit much for a kid don't you think .

More likely a 250cc lawn mower engine!!
Pete

 

How much of Miura's research is signed and dated and clearly shown for the general public?

Same rules apply for both sides.

 

Actually no they don't thats just an excuse for non disclosure, bit like saying you won't show me yours so I won't show you mine.

If you have something of note, be the first to get it out, be loud and proud!

Most of Steves findings are traceable and backed up with photographs, would you like to list anything Steve has posted up until recently that is not? other than his most recent conversations with some relevant people.

The JH link/claim has been in Jims pdf for years, why only today when questioned is it claimed there is a handwritten statement from him, but nothing to support that claim, Wax is hardly on the fence with his views on Jims 0846.

As I said Steves convo with John has as much validity as Jims claims about John in the pdf, they cancel each other out unless either can support their claims with hard evidence.

A signed/dated document is much more conclusive

 

Actually it's not an excuse for non disclosure. It is a failure on both sides to do what is required for people to believe in what they are saying.

Steve is not doing this with any of the people he claims said this or that.

Not saying Jim doesn't need to, I am saying they both do.

It's a bit like saying you have to show me yours but I don't have to show you mine.

It's a bit biased to say you have to show me yours even though I don't show mine.

It is even more biased to criticize one person for not showing theirs when the other is doing the same.

Any argument brought up should be held to the same standard or you are just complaining about something you are also doing.

If you are going to demand that Wax follows this standard then you should be yelling loud and proud that Miura does it too.

You answered your own questions. Miura's findings of late have not been signed and dated by those relevant people nor publicly shown, as well as most of what he has done in the past, so...

Steve is hardly on the fence with his views on Jims 0846/0003.

Like you said... A signed/dated document is much more conclusive.

So when has Steve ever done this?

 

The above is not true. The engine mountings at the front of the engine would not line up with the mountings in the bulkhead if you move the engine down as described above.

For years Mr Glickenhaus has been telling us that the reason for the extra mounts at the back is because of the 12 mm shorter length of the block of the P4 engine and to decrease the wheelbase by 12mm. Now he has changed his story and wants us to believe the above. If you compare the pictures of P4 0858 with the last picture which is Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 you will see that not only is there no room to move the engine forward, but by comparing the spacers on the engine mounts on both cars you will see the distances on the spacers is the same.

What has happened on DP0003 is that for the 312 F1 36 valve engine to fit, which Mr Glickenhaus wrongly says is a P4 engine, using the bulkhead mounting points already on the chassis, the side mountings have to be lower as the 312 F1 36 valve engine has lower mounting points than the P3 side mounting positions this chassis has, IN RELATION TO THE BULKHEAD on this chassis which is a P4 type chassis, correctly modified to fit P3 type engines such as 412P and 312 F1 24 valve.

Rather than do it as Ferrari did it and replace all these side tubes, on this chassis an angled bracket has been used on the left rear side to line the engine mounts up. On the right hand rear side mount some metal has been welded in below and to the right and a hole drilled to make another mount so it will line up.

For the primary P3 type forward side mount to overcome the differing position of the forward side mounts of the 312 F1 36 valve engine, a triangle has been added which reaches forward which is what has been stated by Mr Glickenhaus. However, what has not been stated is that this triangle not only reaches forward but reaches down as well to compensate for the lower position of the engine mounts. It's all nonsense about the engine being placed forward and lower for the polar mass lever distance to be reduced to stiffen it up. Using these added on brackets and wrongly placed triangles actually compromises the stiffness of the chassis, not strengthens it.

DP0003 does not have the same configuration of rear engine mounts as 0846 did when it was a P3. DP003 has been built to P4 plans and has an extra tube above the rear mounts forming a strengthening triangle as the P4s did. O846 did not have the tube above the mount when it was a P3. The tubes above and below the rear mounts on DP003 are at different angles and lengths than on the real P4 0846 also. The primary rear mounts on DP003 have been made to fit the coordinates of a P3 engine using P4 plans.

Mr Glickenhaus saying this is a clever modification that the real 0846 got later on in its racing career is absolutely not the case and assumes we are stupid.
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I am not demanding anything, if the pro 0846 camp want it to be accepted as anything other than what it was purchased as then the onus is on them to provide clear facts and evidence.

If they don't decide to then thats up to them, but weakens their desire for it the be seen as anything else.

If there is a handwritten statement and it can be proven to be from JH then simply post it up as that just strengthens their case.

The pdf only exists to convince others, Jim is clearly already convinced, why care what others think?

 

Same thing applies to the other side trying to prove it is not 0846.

Try selling that it doesn't as much as you want.

 

I simply would like to know what it is, and so far it is Piper 0003 as purchased, and as built by David Piper many many years ago.

I refer you to your previous post about wanting the iphone you bought as an iphone to be something other than an iphone. Until you can prove otherwise then it is still an iphone, even if the plastic case it was made from was recycled from a nintendo, it is still now an iphone.

 

It has yet to be proven that Piper built it. AFAIC it is neither till one side can prove without a doubt where it came from.

Until you can prove that that iphone was built by apple and not a chinese knock off, it is not an iphone no matter how much it looks like one.

But you are free to have your opinion.

 

You just made his point, it's a knockoff until it can be proven otherwise, not vice versa.

 

No. It is not factually either till it can be proven what it actually is.

Just cause it looks like an iphone doesn't mean it is. And it doesn't mean it isn't till someone can prove that also. For the time being it is stuck in to be determined.

At this point it is a frame Piper once owned. It is not a frame that is irrefutably linked to either building it at this point.

You can say it is 0003 all you want. Until there is proof that it was originally built as 0003 I think you will have a hard time convincing many that it is indeed 0003.

You can hold your opinion, doesn't mean others will believe it till you can prove it is what you say it is.

And no one has proven that it is 0003.

Thus why many don't believe it to be 0003.

So make whatever call you want. Doesn't mean others will see it as 0003.

 

I have never heard such a cock eyed viewpoint in all my life!

Until I prove I am a human being then I could just as well be an alien even though I look like and was born as a human being from human parents!

Thank you so much by the way for granting me that option, very generous.

You, Wax, Ginge etc do far more harm than good to the pro 0846 camp by a country mile.

 

Would you bet your life that you are a human being?

Would you bet your life that this is 0003?

I personally would not bet my life that it is 0003 or 0846. No one knows what it is. If they did this conversation would not stil be going.

Fact is it can not factually be called either till the proof exists of what it is.

From reading your jibberish I can only guess that you are an Alien. But go see a doctor. He is qualified to factually answer that question. And I'd go see a doctor, not some amateur trying to be one on the internet.