Is Hamilton one of the GOAT F1 drivers?

Lewis and the team acknowledge that he cannot develop a car, he just jumps in and goes fast. To suggest that he made Mercedes great is naive. He stepped into the most dominant car in the history of F1 with rules that have locked in this dominance. What we know for sure is that he is better than Nico and is winning championships while he can. His career numbers and comparison to his teammates suggest prior to 2014 he was a very good driver but not a GOAT. His numbers and results now are skewed due to no other car being able to win unless the Mercedes breaks or its drivers crash out. To me he is in the top 10, but he does not rate with any of the top 5. Right car at the right time, not his fault, but not his development of a mediocre car into a great car either.

 

Yes, it was impressive, no question. But tell me who else got a car of this quality in his rookie season? Schumacher, Senna? I doubt....
What you make as an example for being on of the greats is exactly the point of criticism others have: Hamilton never sat a day in a backmarker earning reputation to get more out of the car then there is actually in it like the two mentioned above did.
Apart from one season with Kovallainen 2009 every single of his team mates managed to win a GP in the same car showing that the car itself had the potential to win, not just Lewis...

 

All valid points but I don't think that you can rank him in the top 10 of all time. It is impossible to compare drivers from different eras--the driving skills required, the level of risk and the reliability of the cars are too dissimilar.

 

Lol

1st teammate: Nelson Piquet (admittedly not by choice)
1992: Martin Brundle, the man who only just lost the F3 title to Senna
1993: Ricardo Patrese, most experienced at the time I believe, and runner up year before
1994: Verstappen/Lehto. Both with big reputation coming into F1.
1995: Johhny Herbert. Massive reputation
1996-99: Irvine. Wasn't known for being slow
2000-05: Barrichello. Build up a huge rep in his previous years in F1
2006: Massa. Went head to head with Elton a few years later but let down by team.

As for your last statement...Elton is now waxing Nico maybe (though not so much in qualifying? 50/50 there last few races), earlier in the season it was Nico waxing Elton.

 

I thought he was definitely special and i've rated how i saw fit to his talent.

however, when you start comparing performances to his other teammates, he's not this extravagant driver. He's very good and very fast, but i wouldn't put him as one of the GOAT's. There are too many much more talented and deserving drivers in that category.

 

I think it's a little misleading to compare drivers to their teammates these days (other than faster/slower overall). The cars are better prepared and there is so much telemetry and data sharing that teammates should always be close. In the past there was much more opportunity for the driver to influence.

Comparisons in the wet are more valid.

But these comparisons always miss out that element of being 'a racer', that Hamilton, Ricciardo and Alonso have, but Schumacher and Rosberg just don't. Schumacher drove into two drivers in his attempt to clinch a WC (and came out evens).

 

Schumacher wasn't a racer?

This thread.

Lol.

Damon himself has admitted he doesn't think Schumacher hit him on purpose.

Elton himself crashing into anything that moved in 2011...surely he can't be a racer either then by that logic?

 

Damon also has acknowledged that Schumacher was a much better driver than him as well. Damon is another example of a decent but not great driver being in the best car and winning a lot of races against far superior drivers. Both Damon and Lewis are beneficiaries of the British media fawning all over them for achievements that are related to the car being superior. My wife lived in London during the 1990s before we met and told me that she thought Schumacher was the anitchrist before she met me based upon the British media. She laughs now as she has been a real F1 fan and attended many races with me and sees Schumacher as one of the best ever and a humanitarian who donates significant money to those in need like the tsunami victims.

 

Very fair comment, drivers in past eras drove cars that were much more unreliable in significantly fewer races each year, so statistics do not accurately portray the level of their talent. By including Hamilton in the top ten I would put him no higher than 9-10. I think he is very much overrated right now and think that Vettel and Alonso are just as good and Max has the potential to be even better.

 

Near identical cars is a very good reason to compare team mates.
Wet conditions level the field for the cars. Some drivers have the right finesse for the wet but most GPs are run dry so...
Exactly what element is it that Hamilton, Alonso(aside both are crybabies)and Ricciardo have that make them "racers" exclusive of Schumacher et al?

 

+1 Spot on

 

I read this, laughed, then looked at your location and laughed harder.

 

Face palm. You keep saying Hamilton is waxing Nico, which isn't even close to true. Do you watch the races? Is Hamilton better? Yes of course but there is next to nothing separating the two. Also, please stop trying to insinuate that since LH is beating Nico and Nico beat MS that LH would beat MS.

The MS that raced against Nico was clearly far from his prime, literally everyone understands this. You are high if you think LH could beat MSC in his prime, sorry.

 

When i define a G.O.A.T. i think what as this guy really done that mad ehim so, so special, more then others? It's not wining races or podiums or even championships, that can be had due to a variety of things, luck and by far the best car included. What i search are races, performances where the said driver really stod out, where his ability clearly surpassed that of all the others. Why do i rate Gilles above all others? Because no one ever came close to perform at his level in so many ocasions! In at least half of his races you can watch something magic....wining at Monaco and Spain in 81 with the worst chassis on the grid it's the stuff of genius...wining 10 races with a mercedes for the last 2 and a half years it's more like an obligation for any decent driver!! Senna's victory in Portugal 85 showed how much better then the rest he was on that day, Shumacher at Spa many times, or spain 96 and many other places showed how tryly gifted he was, best car or not, Ickx drives in the Nurburgring and in the rain, Stewarts dri9ves also at the ring, Clark sheer speed, Fangio final victory in the ring...all of these are moments that made f.1 history....so, what has Hamilton done so extraordinary? Any magical race? any amazing overtaking?...not really..what i most remenber about his overtaking atempts was crashing against Felipe.....whenever he had a car that was not the best, he was as vulgar as any other driver in the pack.

 

+1...sorry but this is not PF1 forum...People here actualy watch the races, they don't read british tabloids that turn ordinay drivers into gods, just because they're british....

 

NOT
A
RACER?

I've never seen someone assassinate their own credibility so surgically. Well done.

 

The only race that I can hands down say that Hamilton was untouchable was 2008 Silverstone. He was unbeatable that day.

The men you've mentioned have all had more performances that stood out. 'Even' Vettel has had a string of performances that convinces you of his talent. Same goes for Alonso.

Hamilton is a good driver, but not incredible. He's had the luck that he's never had a slow car, and now sits in the fastest car (compared to the competition) F1 has ever seen, helped by their own idiotic regulations. The only reason they haven't won every single race by over a minute since 2014 is simple, they never turn the wick up apart from a handful of laps and qualifying...Save the engine, and moreover, pretend they're going as fast as they can so that the FIA doesn't make a drastic turnaround in regulations eliminating their advantage.

 

Actually it has nothing to do with me being British or black.

I was a fan of MS in the day, and Niki Lauda long before that. Never a fan of Senna (or Damon Hill for that matter) although I respected his talent and saw him in F3. We watch actual live races over here you know ...

 

..no one would tell!!!

 

Agree Bas, that was a fine victory, he drove flawlwssly that day, but let's not forget, Mclaren hit the nail with weather predictions..Ferrari screwd big time...Hamilton had the best car suited for those conditions...felipe the worst.....still, it was Elton's best drive..

 

Agreed there, Hamilton was great in that race. That is a "epic" performance. That said, the Ferrari was pure crap in the wet that year and the McLaren very good, so that flattered him a bit. When the Ferrari's couldn't do anything (Kimi sucks in the wet and so does Massa and their car was poor in it that year) he didn't really have much competition.

 

Here's one for the staticians (it's all about stats right ?); How many WDCs on that list in 11 years ?

If you can't see clearly that Hami is the dominant force at Mercedes I can't help you.
Please remember that I was an ardent supporter of Nico when most of the others here had never even considered his F1 potential. His rise in the last years in F2 was spectacular. He was (is) the real deal.
It's just that he has this certain teammate.
All drivers have certain tracks which suit them.
All drivers have days when they are better mentally than their team-mate.
Cars have problems.
Strategies can be bollixed up.
**** happens.
With Hami vs Nico its no different.
Did Schumi or Ayrton ever lose to their team-mate ?

Yet you can bet your bottom dollar if Mercedes had to choose between Hami and Nico you KNOW who they would pick.
From the first race of the season points be damned.

 

Jesus, could you be any more wrong? Schumacher, GOAT, undisputed most successful and best driver ever..... But he can't race..... No, of course not...... Dear oh dear....... Elton fans really are scrabbling around to justify their heroes status now..... So funny......... you guys make me laugh so hard I'm going to have a hernia.......

 

In the UK, there are some people who acknowledge the world is a large place, and some of it is better than British, there are many who still think we rule the world and are the best at everything...... Best at football (oh dear, couldn't get past the group stages of the World Cup though), best at rugby.... Oops, no, that's the all blacks or Aussies, best at cricket, nope, Aussies again.....

The world has changed, and just because someone's an English driver, it doesn't make him great... In eltons case, I won't believe he's better than just a good racer unless he takes a **** car and makes it dance like a Senna, Alonso or schumi would

 

Schumacher was part Senna (ruthless racer) and part Prost (master technician around a circuit, politically astute). He could always drive a car beyond it's limits whenever it was necessary.

I'm a huge Senna fan, but I place MS alongside of him for these reasons. People can argue he is the better driver because he was more complete, but I just see Ayrton as having otherworldly talent and speed. I'd listen to the argument though.