This poor guy, trying to compare what MSC did to Rubens to the battle between Nico and Hamilton. I'll clue you in chief, what MSC did to Rubens is called "waxing." Needs to learn what the word means in this context, honestly. Question for LightGuy, where do you rank Hamilton all time? Top 3 or something? LOL
Again this fairy tale of poor Hamilton always has to compeat with the true greats and WDCs...and how he takes the challenge... In 2007 he came to McLaren as a Rookie in a top team. He could hardly choose his team mate in this situation and it is not like Lewis seeked the competition of Alonso, he purely had to take it...Certainly he had an impressive rookie season but this was the only season he really got one of the best and opinions are very different whether he was favored by Ron (as his "child") or not... The he had Kovallainen for two years...KOVALLAINEN!!! Please do not tell me that he was really competition, his career in F1 did not last very long for some reasons... The he got Button...Hamilton fans say that Lewis had to compeat with a WDC again but to be honest Button became WDC rather by luck sitting in the Double Duffusor Brawn at exactly the right moment. Up to then Button was said to be the talent who will never make it and he was beating an aging Barrichello, the same driver you mentioned as "chosen second grade driver for Schumacher" years before. Although being WDC Button was never supposed to be a thread for the "Wunderkind" and certainly Hamilton had no fear or objections against his engagement. Well we all have seen that Button was not really inferior than Lewis, something neither he nore his fans ever thought of. Now he is one of the greats all of the sudden to justify Hamiltons seasons against him. Then he changed teams...He was coming into a team replacing the "top driver" Schumacher (although Rosberg was about even) and again nobody thought that Nico might be any challenge for him, neither Lewis, Toto or his fans... It is simply not true that Lewis has chosen to fight against the greats unlike Schumacher or Vettel. Apart from Alonso there was not a single driver that was expected to give him a hard time, before the Mercedes became that dominant nobody really thought of Rosberg as a potential WDC. So please stop to bring up this "Lewis compeated against great drivers unlike others and therefor his WDCs are worth more", it is simply not true.
I think Lightguy means to point out that Lewis never has enjoyed a clear #1 status unlike some of the greats, and that is true. That speaks to the driving era as much as anything...reliability was enough of an issue that teams needed to get behind the primary guy in order to have the best shot to win. Only one of Schu's seasons (2002) was so dominant that he could afford to lose points to Reuben's, otherwise it was nip-and-tuck all the way. Cars are so reliable now that you get penalized if it actually has a failure. LH has had to earn his wins and titles the harder way, for certain, so that's validating for him but doesn't invalidate others who had team orders. Trust that the better driver is almost always the #1 guy. Regardless of where you rate him, 50+ wins is an impressive feat. 22 of those came with McLaren, which was not a dominant team in any of those seasons so the guy has earned his stripes, I think we can all agree.
Maybe McLaren wasn't dominant like Merc now, but their cars were always WDC capable when he was there except for 2011 (still a multiple race winner) and 2009 (started off bad but was a multiple race winner). Lewis Hamilton has had better cars given to him year after year for the entirety of his career than anyone in F1 history, and now it's been capped off with the most dominant 3 year stretch of cars the sport has ever seen.
I don't think so. Rosberg wins regularly just like Hamilton. Rosberg very often qualifies on pole. Speed wise, there is very little to chose between the two; but one has to win, and the other be second, which is often how they finish. So, it's not exactly as you depict it: Hamilton dominating and Rosberg being the under-study in the team.
F1 drivers are measured by the stats. We can lollygag all day long, sing Kumbaya and hug trees but when the chips are down, only stats matter. Hamilton has a good chance to make it to 5 WDC titles, which are really the ultimate measuring stick of all stats. That would tie him with Fangio and make him the 3rd most successful driver in the world. Probably actually 2nd most successful driver because he'll have a bunch of other stats (like wins, poles, fastest laps etc), which will beat Fangio's. MS remains the GOAT and I'm fairly certain nobody will ever touch those records. But belittling Hamilton and his incredible success is equivalent to not understanding the sport. You simply don't luck into multiple WDCs.
I don't think he's being belittled. Many here are saying he's better than the average F1 driver, just doesn't have the qualities of a GOAT.
Just read the post before mine. Whoa, what a ringing endorsement. Hello! He is 3 times WDC. Better than the average F1 driver would be somebody like Massa, Irvine, Barrichello and all those other eternal #2s at Ferrari. Good enough for a victory but not for a WDC (and I'm saying this as a HUGE Irvine fan). You just stepped on the slippery slope of the definition of GOAT. Debating "qualities" is like judging figure skating. Super subjective. Only hard stats are objective. If you define GOAT as a successful F1 driver who is also somebody the fans look up to. Well, then first I'm not interested in that debate (figure skating argument), second you'd probably lose it in regards to Hamilton as he has a huge following of fans and third we would have to agree to disagree on your fav guy anyhow.
I disagree. Like what was said earlier, greatness was achieved by men who did more in lesser cars. Fact is, he didn't have a crappy car. Some of it was opportunity, but Jules scoring a point in a Manor...that was special that day. That showed he had something in him, RIP. Watching guys like Senna and Prost and even Piquet muscle cars around was special. Rosberg is now in an elite group with a lot of his stats. That doesn't make him a world class driver. He's in a world class car. Put him in a normal car and he's a midfield driver. He's quick but he'll never beat hamilton as much as i would like him to give hamilton a little more humility. I truly believe all the drivers are within .5 seconds of each other. The car is what makes the WDC now. Hamilton will probably end up with 4 and i think Vettel will end up with 6 right below schumacher. Do i rate either one of them as one of the GOATs? Nope. Right place at the right time. As i've said before, he's extremely talented and his rookie year was impressive, but if i really come up with a list, i'd say he falls into the mid teens.
Yes, Justin Bieber is very successful as well and has a lot of followers...Does this make him a great singer??? When you only take stats you jugde on a combination car/driver and take this to purely rate the driver...Sorry but this is wrong, success in a team sport (and F1 IS a team sport) can not be the only measurement for individual quality!
Right place at the right time does not happen consistently based on luck. Teams only pick the best driver and/or the one with the most potential. That's how Hamilton ended up at McLaren. And then he was smart enough to move to Merc when that team looked like a bunch of clowns. Alesi was a super talent but didn't have the talent/brains to pick the right team so he was left with one victory. Vettel is another case in point. He didn't "fall" into the RB. He earned it with his super human drive in Monza in the rain where he won the race in a "Minardi". True champs pick the right drives. The best drivers end up in the best teams. Simple as that. And if they don't they build the team around them to become #1. Sometimes a driver gets lucky like Patrese inheriting the dominating Brabham, but he didn't know what to do with it. Neither did Surer. Nor did Webber. The list goes on and on. Believe what you want but there is a reason why some drivers become multiple WDCs and others don't.
True. It's all about the stats. Just ask Stirling "Duffer" Moss or Gilles "Backmark" Villeneuve. Zero WDC's between them. Stat Lives Matter.
Actually I met him. Didn't ask him that question since the answer is obvious. He is one of the few guys who can rightfully be seen as a one time WDC without being it. He gave his car to Fangio to win the title. If he hadn't, he would have won it. That's similar to Gilles Villeneuve staying behind Jody Sheckter in 79 when Gilles could have won the title instead of Jody. But those situations are super rare. In fact those two examples are the only ones that come to my mind from 60+ years of F1. PS: Just noticed that you too thought about Gilles and updated your post. LOL. I really can't think of any other examples of true gentlemen drivers who had a REALISTIC chance of winning the title but left it to their team mates.
So don't listen to me. Dont observe with your own eyes what is going on. Do like many others here do and regurgitate what Hobbs and Matchet have to say. What's that... ? They are saying in effect the very same thing ? Sorry don't "listen" to them either. You have your precious stats.
F1 doesn't offer the opportunity to prove you are the superior driver anymore though save a handful of cars. This has always been difficult in f1 and any non spec racing. However, I would argue it is much harder today to transcend the equipment than in decades past. The budget and work force is hard to comprehend. The driver becomes less relevant in a tech war. You go to indycar to prove that you are the best IMO. Also requires bravery these days. The Indy tracks are not safe by f1 standards and they keep shattering track records unlike in f1. Still safe cars and Dallara made with huge downforce and no power steering. I would flat out LOVE to see any of the top drivers go to a top team in Indy. It would be fascinating.
Stats hardly tell the whole story ... It's not what you win, but how you win it that matters. Some drivers have very little success on paper, but have achieve giant-killing feats with inferior cars, against overwhelming adversity. Stirling Moss beating the Ferrari team TWICE in 1961, for example, with an obsolete car entered by a private team (Monaco and the Nurburgring). He may never have been WDC, but he defeated work cars many times during his career. Or again, Jackie Stewart 3 time WDC driving for a privater operating from a barn against factory teams like McLaren, Lotus and ... Ferrari. People who rely only on stats to make a judgement have no grasp of what motorsport is. A good driver in a superior car is expected to win. But only a superior driver can win in an inferior car.
Yes. Single WDCs can happen, cue in Rosberg Sr. But not multiple WDCs. They are NOT the product of luck.
Perhaps. I'm biased as I adore Mario and don't know enough about Ronnie. Maybe he was another Belloff. Dunno.
Ronnie was well known as one of the fastest men out there. Always in the wrong place. Kind of like Alonso in my opinion.
