BAD TRANSMISSION

It's possible that cars with a good deal of clean mileage on them are actually safer bets because many of the original DCT issues surfaced after low mileage.

We'll have to know more about the nature of DCT failures which appear to be all due to sensor failures. For instance, it could be certain bad batches of sensors, from specific lots or from certain suppliers or in fact a specific design versus a simple wear-and-tear issue. We have to know how they fail in order to understand the risks better.

 

Today I was in my dealer and I had a good look at my Cali's DCT after they opened it and near by there was also a F 12 DCT already open and being repaired. Inside both these two DCT's you can see a lot of sensors and you can tell that they are extremely sophisticated and complicated mechanical pieces.
I was talking for a long time with the mechanic that is responsible for disassembling, repairing and putting back the DCT's in all Ferrari models and this guy in order to be certified to perform those tasks has what Ferrari calls the 3rd level qualification and in order to achieve this qualification he spent a long time of training at the Maranello factory. This person has followed all the DCT's problems since 2009 and he referred to me something interesting. The existing idea that DCT problems applied mainly to cars made until the end of 2012 is not true because he has repaired many in 2013 and 2014 cars. According to him after 2012 Ferrari made some changes on the internal wirings of all the DCT's but the sensors remain like before and they fail on exactly the same way like the previous ones and a good example is this F 12 from 2013 DCT they are repairing.

 

Mario... Did you ask if the majority of DCT failures are due to sensors, mechanical problems, some combination of these?
T

 

Here's some interesting reading on the DCT, somewhat technical. As you can read on page 16, there are many different sensors and actuators incorporated into the two main control modules in addition to the more typical mechanical components. For whatever reason (packaging?), Ferrari/Getrag collaborated on a design which placed the two control modules along with all these sensors/actuators and associated wiring deep inside the housing making them unserviceable without complete disassembly. This is quite opposite to most other manufactures which attach the respective control modules to the outside of the housing for easier access and service. In any event, it is true that early models were built with faulty internal wiring harnesses, a matter of some bad crimp connections I think. Many individuals in the know routinly rebuild these harnesses to be extremely reliable. From my investigation, the failure of sensors and actuators fall within acceptable manufacturing defect rates, it's just a huge effort to replace them. While The term "sealed unit" is quite often used, these DCTs are bolted together just like any other mechanical system and can be easily disassembled. The biggest hurtle for an independent shop is in sourcing replacement components. However, Getrag like any manufacture buys the majority of these electro/mechanical sensors and actuators from subcontractors, so the list of known exact and equivalent components from clutch plates to sensors continues to grow within a small group of independent shops. Federal law dictates that manufactures provide parts and technical support to independent shops for any service or repair that a dealer can perform. I suspect that now that ferrari has opened the door to dealer repair instead of total replacement that a complete parts list will soon be available.

http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/5683/1/Olivi_Davide_tesi.pdf

 

The fact that electrical wiring harness or sensor(s) failure is the most common reason for DCT malfunction and not actual gear failure makes sense to me.

Hopefully instead of simply replacing fried wiring and sensors with the same parts will be changed to solving the root of the problems. Better heat resistant sensors and improved wiring harnesses.

Hopefully Gettsg will not turn a blind eye to owners of their legacy DCTs

 

Tom, I asked and he confirmed categorically that almost every DCT's failures he repairs are due to problems with sensors. In the case of my Cali and this F 12 I've mentioned before, the problem was with the main shaft speed sensor which is one of the hardest to substitute because everything has to be disassembled to remove and replace it. On this kind of repairs the cost of the sensor is almost irrelevant when compared with the labour hours of those specialized mechanics and they told me again that for my Cali just this labour bill will not be less than 7 K Euros.

 

Thanks for the information I just often heard people said that Porsche PDK is a superb DCT, have so many credits to it. Even the video shows the 911 could constantly launch control over 50 times without any problems. I just wonder why PDK is so powerful and reliable? Is because the perfect design or the perfect build by ZF?
Maybe Ferrari should choose ZF 7DCT over Getrag?

 

Doccharlie954
now that you got it back, btw congrats. Can you tell a marked difference in the smoothness of the shifting esp at low speeds. I find that when I am in stop and go traffic the translation form 1st to second and back seems jerky

 

This welded sensor is the epitomy of dumb engineering! Huh?
Remember when they soldered CMOS batteries.

They have some McGuiver work arounds for that

 

It's good you got her back and the process was quite fast.

Concerning this sensor you mentioned which can't be replaced, recently talking with my dealer's DCT's specialist mechanic I was told that since 2012 they've stopped substituting the complete DCT's (Ferrari instructs them that way) when there are sensor issues (which account for more than 95% of problems). This dealer handles a lot of cars and since 2012 all DCT's issues they had have been repaired in house by opening the units and substituting the faulty sensor(s) and all cars went back into the road which means there wasn't a single situation which couldn't be repaired.

As I mentioned before my Cali DCT also had a sensor issued and the DCT it's already repaired and will be put back in place soon. I post a picture of the DCT just in case any one is curious to see what it looks like.

 

DCT
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Am glad you're back on the road. Hope it's smooth sailing and sunny skies from here on out...T

 

Glad everything worked out in the end and you didn't have to pay for the repair. So the moral of the story is to get the extended warranty!

 

I think the welded sensor is in reference to a convertible top sensor. When my top was giving me trouble, they mentioned that they had some difficulty replacing a bad sensor because it was "frozen" to the top frame but they were able to work around it. This solved my problem but I know for sure they didn't actually replace the entire top.

Welding an electrical component to anything seems kind of nuts. Maybe you could just grind it off and reweld a new one back on there : )

 

Sorry I just realized that the sensor you mentioned that can't be replaced is related with the top and not with the gearbox/transmission has I thought………………..

 

Mark, thanks very much for posting the doctorate dissertation on the software modeling of the Ferrari DCT systems.

Boy, it is very technical but in spite of the heavy reading, one does come away with a better sense of the complexity of the mechanism and the control processes involved. I think it is reassuring that they have developed these complex non-regression testing systems for the software control systems; as they greatly lessen potential teething problems when Ferrari and Getrag implement software updates and upgrades. The existence of this kind of testing software and the nature of DCT failures also affirms the view that software can be made more reliable than hardware... if they are designed and tested properly enough.

As you pointed out, the DCTs are not any more "sealed" than other transmissions and hopefully when detailed maintenance information and service components for the mechanisms are more available, DCTs will be more readily serviced by independent service shops. This opening up of service options for our cars as they age would greatly help reduce the costs of labour and components; contribute to better care of these cars.

On the subject of costs and sensors, I would like to refer back to another thread posted back in April by a fellow Cali owner, Tides, under the title of "Speed sensor failure 10 Cali 8500 miles - ". I have attached slightly enhanced the photos that Tides posted. The sensor shown next to the rear trunk Cavallino is apparently the rather pedestrian-looking, $1,314 "STEP 3 SPEED SENSOR". OUCH!!!!!!!

Here FYI is also a link to a list of lubricants and fluids used in the Ferrari California, along with a screenshot of the list for posterity.

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I believe that sensor is actually 3 sensors in one. It measures the shaft speed of the odd, even and output shafts. It's designed and strategically placed inside the gear housing so that its pickups see all three shafts. The little pigtail connector is for the electronic parking actuator. Even though only the even circuit failed the whole unit needs to be replaced. Many of the sensors along with the TCU programming are designed to prevent someone from doing something dumb enough to damage the transmission or to prevent the transmission from damaging itself if something should fail. When you think about all the decisions and corresponding actions that must be preformed it's pretty amazing stuff.

 

It's very amazing stuff indeed. I imagine the customized layout and quadruple function would go some way towards explaining why this little item might cost so much.

From personal experience, this sort of extreme design philosophy is not uncommon with high performance designs employed in other technical areas. Weight reduction and compact packaging appear to be important for these high performance DCTs so I suspect the designers felt the added risks were worthwhile and as you say "... [size=-2]From my investigation, the failure of sensors and actuators fall within acceptable manufacturing defect rates, it's just a huge effort to replace them[/size]...".

Perhaps you can also share the defect rate statistics you researched with us. All the same, your depth of knowledge is very impressive and I very much appreciate your sharing it with us.

 

My Cali has 11000 miles and an extended warranty and had a DCT main shaft speed sensor failure which was substituted by my dealer that has Ferrari level 3 certification to do this kind of repairs. I followed the process very closely and despite of the fact that all costs of this repair are covered by the warranty, the cost of the sensor is the least important. The big cost is the labour work which amounts to many hours and in my Cali's case I was told will not every less than 8000 USD. I've seen my Cali's DCT being opened and closed and these are no doubt specialized operations which can only be performed by certified mechanics. After the DCT was opened, to access the faulty speed sensor they had to disassemble other mechanical parts of the DCT and after it was substituted, they performed several electronic tests before closing the set-up. The job of opening, repairing and closing took one complete working day.

When there is the need to remove the DCT the two single operations which take more labour hours and are more costly are the disassembling of all the Cali's bottom, removal of part of the exhaust, disengage of the hand brake, removal of the back wheels and calipers, etc and afterwards putting everything back again in place.

 

Ferrari should stand behind all of these transmission failures and extend the warranty at no charge. Guess they really do not care about their customers.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience Mario. In Tides's repair (see above), the labour portion was also the larger portion at $4725 USD. I believe the (triple) sensor replaced in his DCT would have required at least the same amount of labour as your main shaft sensor replacement.

Your dealer estimated(?) $8000 USD cost for the labour portion of your DCT's warranty repair (in Spain?). If this is correct, then it is almost 2x the labour costs in the US. Given what I perceive to be generally higher labour rates in the EU, some of the higher costs you estimated may be due to a higher labour rate charged by your dealer. I think it would be useful to know how many hours of labour was estimated.

The service order from Tides does not allow determination of basic labour rate but a recent service from my dealer in Toronto for a noisy fuel pump (also performed by a level 3 tech) indicated a labour rate of $159 CAD per hour ($124 USD equivalent).

Transmission repairs are always one of the most expensive mechanical repairs you can ever incur with any car (aside from engine rebuild/replacement). Replacement of automatic transmissions in simple everyday cars generally involve up to 9 hours of labour. At my Canadian dealer's labour rate, that means up to $1,116 USD. High performance vehicles would normally be harder to service as they are always of more complex and compact design. An everyday rebuilt auto transmission is about $2500-$4000 USD.

At the end of the day, we have to keep in mind our cars are very low volume "exotic" cars, often operating at the technological bleeding edge so everything about their purchase and service will cost more. There is nothing cheap about their ownership.

 

Michael, the dealer I mentioned is not in Spain but near by in Portugal and is the only one, located in the two main cities and assists a total number of around 800 Ferraris.

May be I wasn't very precise when I mentioned the labour cost of 8000 USD because that's a prevision the dealer has and includes all the work carried out from the day my Cali arrived there on the 22nd June. The car spend 1 month doing all kinds of tests requested by Ferrari factory and they only approved the go-ahead with the repair on the 25 th July. As I've referred before in Europe in not like in the USA, very rarely Ferrari authorizes a DCT complete substitution and the procedure is always invariably the repair. The reason why it has taken so long to approve the repair of my Cali according to the dealer has to do with the fact that Ferrari factory has approved in the past several DCT's repairs in Europe which were not properly diagnosed, and in those cases they had to remove twice the DCT's. Now they triple check everything before they give the repair permission.

I was absolutely amazed with what they have to disassemble to remove this DCT and it looks like a titanic job. It's all the bottom of the car, the rear wheels, brakes, calipers, part of the exhaust, rear bumper, etc . I post a picture……...

 

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