Is Hamilton one of the GOAT F1 drivers?

I didn't read the entire post, just scanned through it.

''ham lost 150 points'' was my favourite. Button had plenty of not at fault retirements too, but I suppose none of that counts.

All the points adding up and the championship he would've won...does that mean we can take the 2008 one away, too? After all it was Massa who had car and team failures. And his now won 2010 we can take away too with Vettel's car failures. Same goes for 2012.

 

you mean "buy yourself" a super license.

 

Yes. Lol

It's funny how people who do a little bit of gentlemen racing hugely overestimate their abilities when it comes to F-1. I have done and won a bit of racing and driven several F-1 cars but would never in a million years make such a comment. Even guys like Wehrlein or Ericsson drive circles around all of us. In any car

 

Yep, i also did a few years too,only got to Int B,ran out of talent at an early age,and yes $$ too. My last drive in anything fast was around 30 laps of Dijon in damp/wet conditions in an 'old' Arrows.

The experts on here who rubbish Palmer etc etc simply have no idea what they are talking about.

 

Totally agreed.

What old Arrows? Might have been the same I did laps around a private track in the US. Mine was ex-Hill white and blue. Mid nineties IIRC, not sure though

 

Obviously just about any driver that has made it to F1 is pretty damn handy behind the wheel. But out of the 22, we can (and do) make judgements on who, of that specific group, is better or worse than average (once again, specific to this group). Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vettel, Alonso, Kimi, Button, Hamilton (pains me to admit), all better than ''the average''. Haryanto, Palmer, Ericsson, Nasr, below ''the average''.

Put event he slowest of these drivers alongside one of us, even some of the ones with decent experience, of course they'll beat us.

We have some seriously quick guys on the forum (not necessarily posting in the F1 section), such as Peter Mann, Manuma (lapped after a day just .1 slower than Dario Benuzzi with the FXX), Graham Rahal. I'm sure we have a fair few lurkers here who are proper racers as well and could keep up with the ''slow'' F1 boys, or even beat them.

But that's beside the point. The point is, that car is so bloody good, ''anyone'' can be a champion in it.

 

1983 A6 ex Thierry Boutsen,Cosworth DFV 3.0 V8, Alan Jones did a couple of races in it too. They told me the tub was specially widened to fit Alan in ...but i think they were winding me up! This was back in 1988..
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and that point is a gross exaggeration and dead wrong

 

Ah, very cool. Different car. Also neat that you got to drive Dijon.

 

Would you say any current F1 driver would not have been capable to take the WDC home in the merc in 2014/2015?

 

Exactly my question.

 

Anyone includes non F1 drivers

And in regards to your question: Nico didn't win it despite the fact that he had that exact car

 

For those that think Hamilton is a GOAT, how many races would he have won in the last 3 years in any car other than the Mercedes? Who would have been world champion in 2014-2016?

 

IMHO, I'd say he would have won more than anyone else HAS won.

G

 

Yep,one of the better days in my life 'for sure'.

Anyhow to get back to this thread, Lewis will most likely go down in history as 'one of the GOAT F1 drivers' ...he should get another title this year and maybe even add another 1 or more.

If he wins another 2 or 3 WDC with MB or another team then it would be hard to say otherwise.I would like to see him at Ferrari in 2019,and yes i am a Ferrari fan!

 

Evasive answer from the book. So that is a yes, you agree that "anyone" could be WDC in the Mercedes, the only question is the team mate to beat, not the rest of the field.

 

I didn't say that nor do I believe that. Don't put words in my mouth

Besides I was responding to the ridiculous statement that anybody could be WDC.

 

If we all agree that Rosberg is 'handy' in F1 terms, then the fact that Hamilton has destroyed him twice with a third coming up tells you all you need to know. Yes - the majority of today's F1 drivers could have a shot at the title in the Merc, but the fact that the same one wins it year after year isn't luck or coincidence.

 

Right, the revisionist history is funny. You could go back and do that with MSC and he would have 13 titles.

Here's the facts:

Hamilton was great in 07, I still think it's his best year. Unfortunately he choked in the most epic fashion possible and lost the WDC. I also believe he had #1 status in that team the second half of the year. In 2008, he barely beat Massa, who an old MSC crushed when they were teammates. I won't look at what Alonso did to Massa because that was post accident and he was clearly not the same driver. In 14-15-16 he has driven the most dominant car of all time. Schumacher never had a car this dominant and certainly not for three consecutive years. To say MSC had an easier road to his WDCs is ludicrous. He had to face a very fast Williams car in 1994/95, a very fast McLaren in 2000, and very fast Williams/McLaren in 2003. He also had to test, aka work your ass off, to maintain an advantage, unlike today where Merc's advantage is built in at the start of the year. The only titles he had it easy were 2001 (arguably - the Williams was very fast in qualifying), 2002 (perfect season, on podium every race, will probably never happen again) and 2004.

As for the hypothetical Hamilton/MSC in their prime as teammates, I agree that Lewis would probably outqualify Schumi over the course of the season, but the WDC wouldn't have been all that close. MSC would have the measure of Hamilton in about the same fashion as LH does against Rosberg. A decent battle but you know who is going to win.

My reasoning? Schumacher was an absolute beast in races. Along with Prost, he had the best race craft of all time. The man has 77 fastest laps which will never, ever be broken. In addition, he would mentally break down Hamilton so fast he wouldn't even know what happened. No one in history has been as good as MSC at getting the team behind him. His ability to motivate was second to none.

Finally, we really need to put to bed the myth that MSC faced no talent en route to his wins/titles. In 1991, he jumped into a car he had never driven (in the middle of the season) and outqualified 3x WDC Piquet 4-1. The next year, his first full year in the sport, he beat Senna in the standings. He raced and beat Senna, Alonso, Button, Montoya, Kimi, Mika, etc. Also, Barrichello was absolutely no slouch and MSC simply de-pantsed him.

Personally, I think the current grid is completely overrated. Button and Alonso are getting old and in a slow car, Kimi is past it, Vettel got smoked by a nobody in Ricciardo who is currently being beaten by an 18 year old kid and can't elevate a decent car to wins like MSC or other greats.

If you want to play "what ifs"

-Schumacher was leading by 40 seconds at the 1997 British Grand Prix when a wheel bearing failed otherwise he would have won the WDC in a car far inferior to the Williams
-Schumacher was an idiot Coulthard at Spa away from winning the title in 1998 in a car far inferior to McLaren
-Schumacher broke his leg in the prime of his career or he would have easily won the 1999 WDC (Irvine nearly won it for ****'s sake)
-Schumacher was an engine blowup away from winning the title against Alonso in 2006
-Had he not retired, he would have easily won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs. Massa almost did it in 2008 and MSC destroyed him as teammates.

13x WDC.

Hamilton is unquestionably great driver. To say otherwise is silly, but he still has a ways to go to reach top 5 level, IMO.

 

Very good post there, can't disagree with much!

One of the things I disagree with is Ricciardo and his elevating the car...IMO the car has improved substantially (well, especially since Verstappen has come onboard, so maybe it's Verstappen's feedback? Who knows). The only thing holding it back is the engine. Compared to earlier in the season the car has improved fantastically. On top of that, no testing. Is Ricciardo the next Schumacher though? No. Though he certainly is an excellent driver.

The other is qualifying in their hypothetical prime. I don't think Hamilton would stand a chance in quali, let alone during races. He'd leave the track an inconsolable, crying child, every weeked IMO. I looked up the fastest lap statistic. I thought that Lewis for sure had to be up around 50+ fastest laps....but it's only 30!

 

Sorry I worded this poorly, I meant Vettel hasn't shown me he can elevate a "good, not great" car to WDC contender like other greats have been able to do. Hamilton hasn't either. The only guy on the current grid that has is Alonso.

I don't know, LH is a great qualifier. But then again, he isn't blowing Rosberg into the weeds in quali and a 43 year old MSC tied Rosberg in qualifying in 2012. I just never thought qualifying was one of Schumi's biggest strengths.

 

And Kimi is 2nd with 43, ahead of even Prost. Kimi has always been regarded as the fastest driver out there, he just doesn't give a crap. Its amazing because he has the speed.

 

Tied? Based on what?

Rosberg had a pole. MS didn't

 

They tied 10-10 in qualifying, and yes I am counting Michael's Monaco pole. My point is MSC still had decent speed despite being old.

I know you'll try to start an argument here and argue semantics D) but MSC was the fastest man in Monaco that day even though he didn't grid up P1.

 

No argument. I forgot his Monaco penalty. You are right, performance wise they were tied.