What's your take on Bangle jm2?
See Andrew's post, but as wacky as I thought Chris could be at times, he wasn't the kind of designer that accepted the status quo. He shook BMW Design to it's core, and in the process shook up the car design in the process. Witness the so called 'Bangle Butt' on every sedan these days. I give him full credit for that. Giugiaro, Bertone, Gandini, Mitchell,et al changed things in their own ways. Chris did what he believed needed doing........I would never argue with that. In this day of homogenized, get along with everyone design team leaders, the design biz needs someone to 'spit on the table' every now & then! He did that while increasing BMW sales, and at the end of the conversation that's what it's all about, IMHO.
I can't see any of them becoming timeless classics or iconic designs in the future but then again, perhaps their role was just to confuse what good design is all about - balance, proportions and nerve tingling sensations of I want it and I want it now. The Bangle Butt is a good example of the Emperor's new clothes. It seems that we're going down the road of different is beautiful and I for one, long for the days of love at first sight and the positive wow factor being the main ingredients of car design. I don't want anybody spitting on my table just for the sake of creating controversial design. Not meaning to be negative here but I wonder what he would've done at Ferrari had he ever taken on the role of head design honcho.
This is why I love Ferrarichat. You actually had me LOL Of course we don't need/want someone to 'spit on the table' as it were, just for the sake of changing things up.........Bangle Butt' indeed not one of my favorite design elements my attitude to all the cars that copied/followed the Bangle Butt.......seriously? That's the best you could do? What would Bangle have done at Ferrari..........we'll never know Having said that, design for me at least, has fallen into a rut lately. No one wants to step out and do 'beautiful'............. or so it would appear I was fascinated by the comment by the Ital Design Chief Designer above, where he said 'less may be less', that there was a desire lately for complexity. The students in my Auto Design class sure embrace the design complexity school of car design the Mazda RX9 Coupe got my attention as a step back towards beautiful surface development. The new Maybach shown last week at Pebble while it was a caricature in many regards, did however embrace beauty/surface development...........and IMHO that's a good thing I include the Lambo as a counterpoint Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
John, You left out cohesive. It doesn't have to be simple, as in plain, but it does have to all belong. These days I question if it is a camel building design process or if the practitioners actually think troweling on more is actually better. Jeff
yes, cohesive is another descriptor after listening to the gentleman from Ital Design, I was a bit surprised at his stance on 'less is less'' V. 'less is more' the age old argument about complexity V simplicity is as old as the profession it ebbs & flows with the times Harley Earl once lectured his design team by holding up a plain white billiard ball and a baseball and asked them which was 'more interesting?' we all know what happened to car design in the '50's: wretched excess i've been reading the comments on the Cadillac Escada, and one pundit asked what the chrome piece at the bottom of the door was supposed to do......simple decoration? place to deposit your car payment? damned if I know but someone on the design team must have thought it was cool.......so there it is Image Unavailable, Please Login
It matches the chrome on the back of the rear doors at the C-pillar. I think it's neat. The Escada isn't too busy for a design, it looks quite clean to me - the exterior really is quite nice. All the best, Andrew.
I don't know about that little hokey stick, but I do like that the damned trunk doesn't look to be three stories tall. Good grief cars have gotten tall in the back. The deck lid on a most new cars sits higher than the roof of my wife's 300ZX!
John, The Bangle butt got me thinking... Do you ever do any lectures along the lines of: top 5 game-changing designs? Not necessarily the most popular or cars considered the most beautiful or classic, but the ones that really influenced designs after it across many different marques. If you do have a few examples already compiled, I'd love to hear which ones they are. All the best, Andrew.
I haven't done a talk exactly about that, but I was on the TV show Autoline After Hours several yrs ago, and the topic was the top 10 designs of all time. I have my list, I'll go refresh my memory as to what I said......
Been thinking some on this. The criteria is not the best car (design does not control that) but those that best led the way forward. I am trying to stay away from all the great 2-seat sports cars since that is a realm almost among itself, although I do break that for one car. I have also started my period as the world goes into the 1960s. The 1950s evolved so uch in car design that it is, to me, it own self contained era. Austin Mini - not a great aesthetic but created a package that to today is still relevant. Giugaro Asso di XX - doesn't much matter which in his Asso di series because each made a trend leading statement about folded paper design. Interesting to realize how much plan view there is in his designs; far more curved than one might otherwise think. Mitchell's Stingray racer - even today a seminal design that does not grow old. Look at the continuous belt line that is actually never straight. A very refined sculpting that of cross sections. VW Golf/Rabbit - Like the Mini in its day a trend setter of packaging but this time with a crisp design too. Another Giugaro design. Giugaro Medusa. Certainly not as well known of his concepts but a precursor to the rounded shapes that would come. Predates by years the Audi 5000 and the Taurus. Not a startling like much of his other period work but clearly set a direction while others were still folding paper. Chrysler/Lambo Portofino - a Chrysler design study that would show the cab forward and rounded, but taut, designs. A 4-dor that could look stunning. Bentley Continental - a big coupe that is unabashedly what it is all about. What an Eldo and Mark should be today. A scale that so well executed that it is not ponderous. Jeff
I'm with Jeff on this as well, in that this question is very difficult because the criteria is not very specific. My upfront disclaimer is that first off, automotive design is not a science. So the reality is that there are no right & wrong answers, only opinions. and as we all know opinions vary widely. So back to the question: 5 'game changing designs?' So many examples over the 100 yr history of the car, but maybe I'll confine my choices to strictly Post WW2 vehicles. Prewar has an extensive list in and of itself. In no particular order: Jaguar E Type for it's sensuous beauty/surface development Willys Jeep set the tone for all the SUVs that followed with the '80's Grand Cherokee being the 1st 'commercial' example Mini for it's packaging concept and minimalist size/shape '63 Corvette Stingray as Jeff pointed out 1st VW Golf for it's influence in the box/folded paper design idiom Bentley Continental both the 1st & current versions for it's proportions '49 Ford fenderless integration of the body forms '48 Cadillac for the intro of the tail-fin Audi 5000/NSU RO80 flush glass sedans with proportions that the industry followed Ferrari: original GTO/P4/246 Dino see what I did there Porsche 911 Citroen DS19 '61 Lincoln Corvair both generations and the list goes on..... I know, it's more than 5, but there are others I've omitted, but you get the idea Have I confused you sufficiently?
I went with the Stingray racer because it was even more shocking when done in the late 1950s. By 1963 American car design had already simplifying. Had forgotten the RO 80. Lots of integrated forms. I think that maybe only one or 2 that I have seen in the US. Thought about the Citroen DS but decided it was an outlier. 911, to me, is within its own self contained world. 1961 Continental was very strongly considered. Had forgotten the second generation Corvair. Worthy of consideration. Considered the 69 GTO. A statement in muscular forms. Considered the 66/67 Toronado but decided that although a spectacular design it did not really influence lots of others. Still debating this thought.
the Citroen is always a controversial choice, but it's the architecture that I believe is significant, some are turned off by the design, but IMO, it was way ahead of it's time It still looks like a rocketship on the road and it's 60 yrs old! I personally love the Toro, Eldo & Riv from the '60's, but as you pointed out, it's difficult to say there was a great influence on the design profession, although the Ford Maverick was a miniature Toro. Keith Teter told me that! I could also make the argument that the 1st version of the Bangle Butt had a gigantic influence on sedan design. Hard to find a car these days without the layer cake decklid look
Further expanding on this and using my criteria of 1960 and forward designs. Yes, know that the Mini and the Stingray racer are actually 1950s. By 1960 Virgil Exner had lost his mojo at Chrysler. Elwood Engle early on recycled the Ford work. Occasionally something interesting but not setting any trends. It was not until Tom Gale was made VP of Design and with the right chemistry in the executive suite that Chrysler led design. Ford's contribution is the 1961 Continental and that was under Walker. Bordinet had no intention of having Ford as a leader in design. Jack Telnack did lead until knee capped. J. Mays and all his retro - a future to nowhere. As for GM, I was surprised that more of the Mitchell era cars did not make my list. Without a doubt GM led design with Ford (under Bordinet) clearly copying GM at every opportunity. Problem was in picking some of Mitchells work I saw it as being perfectly executed and leading the pack but not necessarily seminal game changers. I probably need to go back and revisit Roy's book to realize what I missed. Irv Ribycki is best forgotten at GM Design. Chuck Jordan's original group of Rogerama cars might be worth a look. Too bad they couldn't make the transition to production. My group of selections is biased to the show cars since they were the first viewing of the trend. They also are more pure with their aesthetic statement; pre manufacturing and costing considerations. I have also tried to avoid marketing trends versus design. A 1963 Riviera for personal luxury, 1964 1/2 Mustang, 1967 Eldo for the big luxo personal coupe. The Chrysler mini van is one that as a packaging study could be part of the "design" but I instead view it as a marketing category (too damn ugly to be part of Design). So, who else is going to weigh in? Jeff
Dear John, Thought you might like to know about this presentation although I do not expect you to make the trip. http://www.nmhistorymuseum.org/calendar.php?&id=2826 Best regards, Robert PS If you do come, we have room in the guest house for you!
That should definitely be interesting. There may even be a Ferrari portion to this story. Bill Mitchell had a 410 SA on order that he never took delivery of. Mitchell and Enzo did know each other. GM Design did own a 246 Dino coupe and then later a 308 GTB. Chuck Jordan was an avid Ferrari person. Others within GM Design did and still do own Ferraris.
Very cool! Thanks. Dennis & Bev are old friends. We worked at GM together. They've invited me to be a judge, but the timing is tough with school. I'll make it one of these days. My friend Kip Wasenko is Chief Judge I believe. He speaks very highly with what the Littles have done with the Sante Fe Concours.
Only 1 Ferrari left at GM Design: Bertone 308 GT4 owned by the Global Director of Chevrolet Design. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Yes, you did skip over that one. Completely unintentional, I would believe. That one happen to be tri-coat yellow with a black and yellow interior?
no, it's a GM Owned red/black 458 Spider......was in the Corvette Studio for a lengthy period The yellow one you are referring to....my previous ride was sold to a local Detroit area guy. Saw the car last week. He put black wheels on it.. Image Unavailable, Please Login
