When is enough, enough>?

That would do it. I bought my car knowing it needed work. But honestly I think it's safe to assume ANY 30+ year old car will need work. The more neglect, the more work needed. And no Ferrari is cheap to fix. I've seen people compare the costs of maintaining these cars to Toyota's for God's sake. That's just crazy. It's apples and oranges.

 

I had a 308 for about 15 years then sold and now have a mondial QV cab back in the garage. Here are a few things I learned/heard/read/tried/etc over some of that time. Some may or may not be relevant to your ongoing troubles

When installing new cam cover gaskets, trim the gasket back 1/16" or 1/32" from the cam seal o ring. When the gasket swells with oil it expands and cuts into the O ring causing a leak in that area.

Throwing copious amounts of silicone at a leak is not a great long term solution as per pic in post 15 (sorry). Just remember there is an equal amount of silicone on the inside of that cam cover which can break off and clog up oil passages which obviously can lead to bigger issues.

When reinstalling the cam cover check it for warpage. Get it machined/filed back to a tolerance which wont need major amounts of silicone.

Most top end indie shops use honda bond and not RTV

Did the shop pull the engine to do the major or just leave it in the car? Pulling the engine obviously makes working on things like the delicate installation of the gaskets (and many other things) much easier. The mondial was designed to drop the entire sub frame and its worth the extra time.

Spend some time up in the 308 section. There is a huge cross reference thread for lots of parts that one can find without the "ferrari tax"

IMO chasing a leak proof 3X8 series engine can be an act of futility. Borrowing an old adage from the Harley world "if there isnt oil under it, there isn't oil in it" I've owned a 308, 348 mondial QV and two lotus esprits... they leak oil, they leak gearbox oil... they leak.

Also include in your repair budget a large allowance for both good quality and large amounts of bourbon! Hang in there!

 

That silicon in post 17 has been there since 1996 without leaking. It stands to reason that someone who disses silicon would have some leaky motors. Advice came to me from someone much older and more experienced in Ferraris at the time, when I thought as you did that Ferraris leaked oil, and that's that. He said no, there should be no leaks. Got the car from the mighty German BMW Dealer, who had no clue how to fix the oil cooler, or cam seal leaks. First thing I did 20 years ago. If you want an oil leak, use Honda whatever. If you don't want an oil leak, use Permatex Ultra Black.

Read the reviews for yourself:

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-82180-Maximum-Resistance-Silicone/dp/B0002UEN1U

 

I bought the car because at one time I was smitten by the Ferrari bug. I owned a 308 at the time I bought the mondial, and I paid the (now retired but then famous fcar mechanic) Dennis McCann to look at the car beforehand, and to completely rebuild the motor and go through the car after purchasing it, obviously needed since the engine was out in pieces at the time it was sold. So to say I had no knowledge of what I was getting into is untrue.


I owned the car for 25 years during which time I had two other ferraris so I was able to assess the relative strengths and weaknesses of the car. It was by far the mongrel of the three and most of my issues were common problems that often crop up on this forum (instruments, dipstick, clutch slave, oil leaks, plug wires, idiot lights, slow windows, door rust and so on). I could probably count, on the fingers of one hand, the number of mondial owners on the forum who have owned their cars that long. So to say I gave up too soon is also uninformed to be polite.

I am an engineer and have owned and worked on vintage cars for over 40 years, so to imply that I am not qualified to own a mondial is dubious. On the contrary, I think I am more qualified than 90% of the "experts" on this forum to provide an objective assessment of these cars. Most of these fans are psychologically invested in their cars but secretly most would be relieved to sell their cars at current "asking" levels.

The person who bought the car from me did a minimal belt service and flipped it. I was happy with the price he paid, it was full asking. He did realize a good price on eBay partially due to outstanding photography (he is a professional car photographer) but also because he lied through his teeth in describing the car. Among other things he stated that I was an FCA board member. That car has subsequently been offered for half the money. If anyone is bitter, it's the starry-eyed sucker who bought it.

The mondial is the tourist trap of the fcar world. You get in cheaply but the drinks cost $15 a pop. If I can educate one potential purchaser, it is worth all of the oftentimes immature cheap shots several have taken.

 

Apologies if my response to Paul sounded like a cheap shot, Russ. It wasn't meant that way. That's two very different versions of the same story to say the least! I'll let you guys sort it out among yourselves.

For my part though, the Qv cab I had back in the 90's was a great car. I haven't owned the QV coupe long enough to say how it will fare over time. But over a 25 year period, don't you think it's reasonable to expect a car (especially an Italian sports car) to need nearly everything redone at some point?

Also, I've got to say that until the prices shot up recently I've always thought of the 308 cars as the tourist's Ferrari. For many years, less than $50k would let you fulfill your Magnum PI fantasies and look swanky. But those cars had lots of the same issues, no? Instruments, fusebox, wiring, clutch slave, oil leaks, plug wires, idiot lights, slow windows, door rust and so on? I've heard it all from the 308 guys over the years, and the 400/412 guys...oh, and the Testarossa guys!!! Forget about it! They're always complaining, at least in my experience.

I'd think the Mondial too idiosyncratic to be the "tourist" model. It's weird looking. Too weird looking and "uncool" to satisfy most F car tourists. And I get that the Mondial isn't for everyone. I love it but I also get why many don't. But the differences between these cars and (especially) the 308's- in performance, reliability, and maintenance , seem to me to be too slight to really even compare. I think it honestly is a different experience from car to car, mechanic to mechanic, driver to driver. My Dad had a friend who used a Daytona Spyder as his daily driver for years. It was fine. But I also hear about Daytona's that are always being sent back to the shop to get something fixed or tweaked. Constantly. One mans reliable daily driver is another mans headache. But they're the same model.

I do think anyone trying to buy a "cheap" Ferrari needs to be warned that they're expensive cars to run, no matter what you pay for them. I wouldn't say the Mondial requires more warning than any other model though.

PS- Was your car the Black/black 8 that sold for about $38k on ebay at some point? I remember the high quality pics.

 

IMHO, if you can't afford the car, and if you hate it, then sell it. End of story.

 

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the context. Just something I want to point out. Do you refer to the crankcase mounts? P/N# 103764, 103765, 103766?

I can see why this is expensive, I believe you cannot buy them separately. But let me point this out (I had a similar discussion with Russ Gold on his issues) - if it is indeed this part you speak of, they are same exact parts as the 308 & 308 GT4/328/ and F40.

As for the Fuse, replacing with a larger fuse is a band aid of course. Which fuse in particular kept blowing? Also another question, did your car have any aftermarket electronics/alarms/radar detectors installed? Either a part is going bad and is stressing the system or a short somewhere.

On the leaking gaskets, again - this is the same engine as the 308 - the Mondial does not have a 'special' gasket just for the Mondial only that is prone to failure. If you had a 308 and had the same 30K major, you would have the same problem P/N# 108384 (gasket)

The Mondial *is* a Ferrari after all, and it does not make financial sense to have parts just unique to the Mondial. Cross share when possible!

What i'm trying to say is this, if you have problems with your Mondial, you have to be able to seperate the issues that are *Model* specific from issues that are *Marque* specific for proper context.

Russ Gold would complain about things like slow window motors and floating fuel gauges. Guess what? On a 308/328, you have: (slow window motors and floating fuel gauges)

In the end one has to ask if they are willing to deal with 80's Ferrari (not a Mondial per se') This in the end is only a question you yourself can answer.

Cheers

 

haha

pretty much sums it up.

 

Instruments on the early cars, yes.
Fusebox on 88.5 328 is all sorted by then
Wiring, well, wiring is wiring
Oil leaks. My 328 does not leak oil
Plug wires, same wires as the Mondial
Idiot lights, what is the problem?
Slow windows, yes they all do that
No door rust on 328

 

no Mitchell, only the Mondial has slow windows and leaks oil...don't you know? Mondial uses engine gaskets and window motors from Fiat. Veglia Borletti? nope - knock off 'Veglias Borlettias' from China...

 

Then my 328 passenger window must have a Chinese knock off motor as it is slow as hell

 

I assumed by "idiot lights" Russ meant either electrical gremlins that make things go haywire and trigger warning lights, or that the headlights won't pop up (also electrical). I've heard of both issues on 308's and Mondial's.

I honestly don't know much about 328's vs 3.2 Mondi's. I've never had one or had a friend who had one. But I know a few guys with 308's who used to get rust in the doors and door sills.
Anyway, to me basically 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

 

Sell it and buy a 365gt4 instead. Then your problems multiply by 50%. But it sounds so much better!

 

Bingo.

 

At the very least get the leak resolved since you already paid money for the 30K major. If it is truly a gasket leak, your mechanic I'm sure will be more then happy to resolve, I mean that's one of the main reasons to do a 30K major (replace engine gaskets) in the first place! If the leak is from some other source not related to a 30K major, let us know -- that's what this great community is all about - to help fellow Mondial owners trouble shoot a three and a half decade old car.

Cheers

 

This is the answer if you can afford to do it.

Selling in a decade will put enough money in your pocket to make you forget about the problems your having with the car.

Probably, not something your financial planner or CPA will tell you to do.
(If they did, I'd advise you to fire them.)

Let's resurrect this thread in ten years & see what Mondials are selling for.

Good luck.


Cheers

 

That's probably the worst thing you could do. 10 years without exercise, and the car will have all sorts of problems. I think a lot of the problems with these cars comes from lack of use in the first place. As long as you own the car, you should drive it at least once a week. If you can't drive it, at least start the motor, and operate the various switches, lights, blinkers, horn, windows etc. Of course it's best to fix the leak, but it would still be better to run the car even if the oil leaks, then letting it sit. You can always clean the oil off.

 

I got to this point about a year ago. My problems are ignition switch (NLA but managed to fix it after two years of searching) and a distributor issue that crops up every once in awhile. The car needs something every 6 months or so. I am so busy that I rarely have free time to work on it myself. In four years of ownership, it's been driven less than 3000 miles because it often won't start. It's left me stranded several times. I think it needs new plug wires right now and possibly a new distributor? Who knows.

I have a well-regarded Ferrari indie nearby who hates the car so much it takes me six months or more to get it in to his shop. He'll only take it when things are slow and he needs money, and even then he treats me like garbage. No other F-car mechanic in the entire Chicago area will touch it.

I recently acquired a Mini Factory JCW that's just as fast, just as fun to drive, just as junky, and significantly cheaper to repair than my Mondial. The only reason I haven't put my Mondial up for sale is that I'm way too busy to mess with it right now. Will the Mini depreciate? Sure. But that's a headache I can manage.

 

Ken,

Thank you for your service.

Get that leak checked out and see if it's the gaskets.

Cheers

 

JCW is pretty darned fast; I'd put it in the same league as my V10 S8. It's not very refined, the gauges suck, the plastic is cheap and brittle, and the handling is amazing, so it's alot like the Ferrari in those regards. When it breaks it's much less expensive to repair.

My 3.2 has been tweaked so it has about 300HP. Fast and fun when it starts and runs, infuriating when it doesn't. I'm in a rare spot because all my electrical is new yet it still has odd issues (headlights don't come up anymore, etc.)

Since it's so difficult to get service around here it's kind of a waste for me. I'd just as soon sell it and put the money toward buying more rental property.

The mechanic issue is definitely infuriating, but it is what it is. There's not a lot I can do about it except sell the car. Chicago has a reputation for being very litigious, so mechanics are extremely cautious about what they will and won't service.

 

Russ

Thanks for posting up the information.

As you know the running gear is the same as the 308 on the early Mondials, 328 on the later ones and the 348 on the last version. So running gear problems, including the electrics can't be endemic to the line.

People have posted here for years with their stories. Your story is clearly an outlier. Perhaps you had a bad unit, it happens in every car line (don't buy cars made on Friday's or after a holiday was the mantra when buying from the "big 3" American companies for many years).

As bad as your experience was, mine has been much more typical. The car only let me down once, when one of the ignition modules mounted in the trunk failed. Ferrari wanted over $1000. After some searching, I found NOS for under $100! Once I confirmed it worked (for 2 years now), I bought a spare.

Had to replace the worn combi (headlight) switch. It was cheaper to buy new in the UK and ship it here than to buy it here. Had to replace the interior fan relay (not the right term) because it would only run on high. Have had to have 2 of the electric modules for the shocks rebuilt and replaced the plastic gear with metal. Replaced the troublesome fusebox with Dave Helms upgraded unit which splits some circuits. Based on reading before I bought the car, none of these items were surprising. It wasn't "if" things would need to be replaced, only "when". In my case, once something has been fixed, it has pretty much stayed fixed. Maybe I and my buddy are better mechanics (neither of us are engineers, although my buddy has worked for Ferrari, Mercedes and currently works for AMG).

Doing a major does not require an engine out on the t. You can drop the gas tank. But even the dealer who probably does drop the rear cradle doesn't charge much extra for the t service than 328 because much time is saved once the motor is out of the car. Much easier to work on.

I was not impressed with the early Mondials. But then I rarely go for a car that has first come out. I like to let the manufacturer work out the kinks. When I looked, I limited my search to 3.2's and t's. That's just me.

I don't put a lot of miles on my car (in the Ferrari world 2000 miles a year is just average, not low miles), but I do run it regularly. At 42,000 miles for a 1989, I think it is a low mileage car (put a 1989 MB or BMW up for sale with that kind of mileage and people will flock to a low mileage unit like that). I don't beat on it, but I don't baby it. I think the best thing you can do for these cars is drive them.

So prospective buyers should weight all the experiences, not just yours. Your poor experience is just as relevant as a person's good experience. It is unfair and disingenuous to discount good experiences from current owners than to portray a bad experience from a former owner as the sole correct experience.

Regards,
Jerry

 

I have been active in the maintenance of my own vehicles for nearly 50 years ...VW's, Volvos, Fiat, a slew of BMW's, Merc's, Porches and now the Mondial. I have a few of "modern" cars that don't get my attention much because they are: under warranty, require sophisticated diagnostic equipment or simply are much more reliable. In truth, I bought the Mondial with the knowledge that it was one of the last FCars that I could do my own maintenance on...silly as it may seem, I wanted that experience.

So here is what I learned by performing the Major on my 3.2 QV.....the engine is a technical marvel for its time, and really quite simple in design. At the same time, simple makes it complicated.

For instance, the valve train. Very simple direct actuation of valves by the cam lobes..no extraneous rocker arms, shafts etc. However, without the special tool required to change FCar valve shims, the cams must be removed, which in reality, must be removed regardless if one wants to renew the large O-rings.

Changing out water hoses? The throttle body, WUR, intake plenum, and water pump housing must all be removed.

Timing belt changes require precision and confirmation that you have everything perfectly lined up and when I found that I still had a couple of valve clearances that were off, belts, cams..everything had to come back out and then be re-installed.

Secondly, access is a challenge, the rear bank is relatively easy but the front bank requires you to have eyes in your finger tips. And by the way, none of this is possible without first removing the engine bonnet and a myriad of other covers and heat shields. Also figure on removing inner fenders on both sides, working from above as well as below.

In short, working on a Mondial requires a lot of patience, time, attention to detail and if you don't have the inclination to perform the work on your own, money. My neighbor's 308 will spend weeks at a time at one of the most reputable shops in the country so taking 3 months for me to do the Major was not unreasonable for someone who was learning as they went.

As an aside, a mechanic who lets a car out of his shop with an oil leak bad enough to trail visible smoke is unconscionable and suggests that shortcuts were taken...as others have said, either the Mondial is loved or hated. And while others may scoff, I am one who believes that machines have a soul of sorts and respond to abuse and neglect as any human or pet would.

Brock