Whats with Ferrari and bogus HP numbers?

I honestly don't care about straight line speed, ... but I do track my car and go on drives not just park them outside of restaurants.

That said I would be disappointed if Ferrari customer cars can't actually match or come close to their claimed numbers. Are there alot of data on this or is it just from your observation from some events? Is it a traction issue maybe? since F12 is rwd. has anyone raced an F12 and an aventador on a roll? F12 vs Hurracan?

btw im not an "old guy"...I just dont get entertained going in a straight line/ dont enjoy airstrip/ drag events. I bought a Ferrari because I like the feel of the car more than other cars.

 

I feel like people are jumping on him as well. But I went back and read the thread. It looks like the insults from him start on the 8th post. Nothing before that other than people saying they don't buy a Ferrari for speed.

After that it goes sideways fast, every time I think the guy is going to be cut some slack he tosses another insult.

So I just wanted to know if he is a troll, or a true owner. I would rather have an abrasive owner with an opinion then a troll insulting people for buying a Ferrari.

As I stated there are a lot of people here who own multiple cars, and multiple brands. There is no "best car".

I think the guy should just post some proof and move on. I'm happy to write a check to charity. Happy to apologize. His insults get old.

Maybe we have a half truth here, he owns some nice cars, but he doesn't own what he claims? Who knows. I'm sure he will toss out some more insults. I'm sure he will request a bet. It's all a joke to him.

 

This

 

I'm assuming this comment is directed at me.

I own an f12, 650s (just sold it a couple of months ago), 675 LT, speciale and aventador sv (some others but in a different class).

Ferrari's launch at a lower RPM then mclarens, lambos and porsches. I don't get any wheel spin on the ferrari's but they are slower off the line for sure.

I was disappointed in straight line speed with speciale versus a huracan (brother in law owns a huracan and I've also driven it) (similar type horsepower).

I expected f12 to do better then it did versus mclaren 650s and huracan.

The other gentleman who did a drag race with his f12 is also a veteran of these types of events and he had similar results.

There is another member on mclaren life and I'm sure he is also on these forums (w.mitty). He went to mojave mile with his 650s and won the exotic class by going 201 mph and f12 never went over 193 mph.

the larger the distance (ie., 1.5 miles) then the car with more horsepower should win but for some reason the f12 doesn't get it done at half a mile or 1.5 mile versus lesser horse powered cars.

 

hmm that is interesting, it is only HP that is causing the car to be slower? or is it just the design of the car. OP seems to state that Ferrari is misleading HP numbers, I think the best way to prove/disprove that would be through a dyno (since that measures HP only).

Performance can be a combination of different factors, rather than just sheer HP/weight. Do Ferrari consistently match their claimed 0-60 times? or top speeds? Maybe Ferrari is just not as good as others in getting HP to the ground? (drive train loss, or F12 has worse aero than a Mclaren etc...i'm just making things up but hope you get my idea).

edit: my thought is what if an F12 really DOES have 730hp and really does 3.0 0-60 but some how (gearing? aero?) sucks at 60-150mph or whatever. Maybe the poor drag strip performance doesn't necessarily translate to bogus HP numbers.

I know Chris Harris used to say Ferrari made their test cars better than customers cars, wonder if this is still the case and now I am curious.

I've also heard German automakers like to understate their HP numbers and Italian overstate lol

 

Oh this was just a fantasy wishing game all along? Why didn't you say so in the first place, would have save a lot of bandwidth.

And we've heard this argument before, many times over. What weekend show that doesn't go by when the Mustang/Corvette/Porsche/Nissan owner has to convince everyone their car is better than the Ferrari because it smokes everything at the drag strip. Yes, we've had these very conversations. Not really all that special or insightful.

No, your wishes are not going to happen. Ferrari has always been, and God willing, will always be a trophy for the rich and the wanna be rich. It has never been a good choice for young enthusiasts to take to the track and actually expect to win something.

If you'd rather be racing then you'd rather be in another marque, like Porsche or Mazda (at the track) or Corvette or Viper (at the drag strip).

A stock, street Ferrari is never a good choice in either environment, no matter how much that crushes your fantasy world of what Ferrari should be (a means for young racers to show up to the drag strip looking for a good time).

Now, you want to really have some fun, pick up a Ferrari Challenge car, a car that was actually built to race and get back to us. Otherwise, keep dreaming.

The point about all those other marques is, why even bother with the Ferrari? Drive the 911TT to the drag strip and have fun. Why are you even wasting your time with the Ferrari? Is it perhaps that there is more to life than just 1/2 mile times? Even for you?

-F

 

So he can come on here and wind everyone up. With, it must be admitted, a considerable degree of success!

 

Nah, he (I guess) actually bought a 458. That is a lot of money to spend on a car that doesn't match one's needs.

So either he actually thought the 458 will be a more competent machine to take to the drag strip OR he's hiding the fact that there is more to life than drag strip times.

Which is it?

And just to be clear, as paulchua stated, this is just internet banter. Who cares what this kid really thinks? We've heard this line of argument, no big whoop.

-F

 

But back to the original claim, that Ferrari has bogus HP numbers. Has that actually been established?

Do the magazines (Road & Track comes to mind) still test all the specs?

-F

 

Thanks for the reminder. While we wait for the other issue to be resolved , if it even matters, it would be interesting to have confirmation or acknowledgment that the published numbers are indeed bogus. This is a big deal if it's true but not for obvious reasons. The way I see it, it makes no sense to brag about HP (if true) if you're not utilizing it. In other words, it suggests that vehicles with lower published HP but with quicker delivery have some secret that Ferrari has not yet worked out (friction, efficiency, drag, traction, calibration, gear ratio etc etc). That's embarrassing for a marque with such racing heritage.....so why inflate the numbers? Makes no sense.

 

04g - I think your post would have been better received in the tracking section. Tracking & Driver Education - FerrariChat.com

I looked at "shift-sectors". These are guys that are really into racing. It appears many cars are trucked to the event, which makes me wonder if its street legal car. How do you know these cars are not modified? Running special fuel?

All great topics under the track section.

I question the logic that says one car must be lying about its HP if another car beats it with less HP.

These "shift-sectors" events look pretty cool, but it does not have anything to do with what car I drive for fun. My Ferrari has never been on a track, and has not been over 130mph as of now. But its still a blast to drive, and its is incredibly fast. And I could easily spend $30k to modify it and make it even faster. By the numbers it beats your Porsche and your Lamborghini... but the numbers mean nothing.

Good luck, finding your dream car.

 

Jeeeeeez
10 pages and 185 posts, this should have been started in P&R.
....and this pic is 9 pages to late.

 

This was a "shift-sectors" he quotes. Who knows what's been done to these cars to win. These numbers did not come form a controlled study.

The events look super cool. People who get off making their cars go fast. What have they done to them? What fuel are they running? Tires? Exhaust?

the OP implied Ferrari over states their HP by 15%. I'm a logical guy. How does one come to this from the fact car A beat car B? You can't All we know is car A is really fast. Maybe one is racing a stock Ferrari because he/she thinks its fun, and the other is a engine nut and its been highly modified.

I don't race so I really don't care, but to say that Ferrari lies about the HP because it loses a "shift-sectors" race is simply crazy.

 

Here is what i dont get about the 'speed' crowd. Everything straight off the lot can be made faster, so if you really want to be the fastest guy on the track, then you are going to have to modify.

Once you get into modifying, why does it matter if the stock Ferrari is a 1/10 of a second off the other car.

I dont race but my friends that do say its far more about driver ability , until you get into the really big leagues...and those guys arent buying Ferraris off the lot.

 

I don't think they are overstating the horse power numbers of the f12. That would be too big...

I've evolved as to how I use these cars. Started off going to cars and coffee events, then rallies/canyon runs, speed events and then tracking. As I evolved the performance really started to matter.

For what it's worth; I don't believe most of the manufactures tests. They say P1 will do 0 to 60 in 2.8 and in some cases 2.6 seconds. I never felt it was that fast off the line with a launch (991 turbo s felt faster off the line). This was confirmed to me that it didn't seem so impressive off the line when I went up against a stock 650 at shift sector. it was a fair start and the 650 was in front of me until about 120 mph when i caught up to it and then pulled away.

 

I see. So these cars "could" be far from stock or as the OEMs published. I guess the solution now is to find some enthusiasts to hot Ferrari's up more than Mclarens.

There must be an event where the rules are STOCK ONLY.

 

I don't know anything about overstating HP by 15%. The shift sector results he quotes are real and not from modified cars or racing fuel. (I know most of the drivers who were part of the test). It's just a bunch of middle aged guys who want to go and feel speed in a controlled environment.

Using launch control with auto shifting and keeping the pedal to the ground doesn't take a whole lot of skill.

 

Funny thread, if anybody here actualy goes to the track where you know you go round corners then you know most of the cars mentioned here are (a) way too heavy, and (b) have too much hp for their own good, thats why they need their computers have to reign them in on any sort of road course.

Of the so called exotics mentioned here, the fastest round a road course track would be the one driven by the better driver, and probably the least fun one to drive would be the 991TT. Addtionaly the heaviest one would probably wilt first.

From what i here from those that actualy know, the huracan is the best of the so called current crop of exotics on a road course. Itll also get smoked by a well driven 300hp 2000lbs lotus.

You knwo straights, those are the boring bits between the corners.

As for the back road, its seems very unlikely that anyone is going above 160, and its even more unlikely that the cars are driven to the limits on corners.

Fast cars for big egos, and frankly it tlkes zero skill to launch with launch control and zoom down a runway, thats not racing, that a cool low skill adrenalin buzz.

 

Just came back from a morning and afternoon meeting and saw this thread doubled in size; good thread for popcorn futures here!

I'm not sure if everyone settled on GrayTA as an intermediary or not; but if there's still a useful purpose to be served by my getting involved, I can do so.

 

Damn. I'm late to this dick measuring contest. Who's in the lead???



Mark

 

I don't know anything about these races. I don't know how they validate the cars. But I know I would not claim Ferrari is over stating their HP based on these events.

Seriously - How do they make sure the cars have not been tuned (its all electronic)? Or using racing fuel?

The events look cool.

If the cars are not modified, shouldn't the outcome be the same ever race? Why race them?

 

Well it's a conversation about Italian cars, so I can assure you rational thought and common sense are losing!

 

Stock 2016 ACR owns the record at every track it's been run on. Faster than 911TT, 918,huracan, aventador, 488 etc.

 

Like I said; I know what I did at the event I attended and I know most of the owners at the last event (specifically, white huracan, white 12c, orange 675 lt, f12, aventador, speciale, red huracan).

Usually, the results are the same except for maybe roll racing (hitting rev limiter, starting in wrong gear, etc.).

Why race them? At a certain point people want to actually feel the speed in a legal and controlled environment. Lots of fun for sure.