Whats with Ferrari and bogus HP numbers?

I hear ya but who would ever know? If we can barely agree on the boundary conditions (mod/stock, straight line/course etc) here, imagine trying to provide objective evidence for a court to decide.

 

Completely agree, and I never contested the speed claim. I think the negative reaction was not the question itself but the presentation. There are plenty of other threads that have posed the same question that did not have this kind of reaction. If you want to win 1/4s 1/2s heck 1 milers - yeah the poster is right, Most Ferrari are not the car to do it. I didn't see anybody in this thread that said it was.

As to 'why' this is, I have said in my previous post because in the evolutionary cadence of Ferrari - it's not place as high on the priority list say vs Porsche.

Finally as to 'hopes,' The OP said he wishes this changes, I would say many share his sentiments.

 

Good point, though I've learned never to underestimate the greed of trial lawyers.

Be well ozzindaus.

 

You should probably google horsepower rating class action lawsuit. It's been done with cars and tractors....successfully.



Mark

 

The Mazda RX-8 is one example. The lawsuit was successful and Mazda was forced to offer to buy back the vehicles if the owners chose.

Mazda Revises RX-8 Horsepower Number - RotaryNews.com

 

It's too bad they did this, the RX8 is quite successful in SCCA autocross for its class.

Could also be production numbers, there might be too little to make it worth on affected models for Ferrari.

 

OK, HP can be checked to a standard with all correction factors applied and agreed upon. Is there a standard on the 0-60 mph tests?

F12 (740HP) and GT3 (500HP) seem to be on par at 3.1 seconds despite the massive difference in HP. If these numbers are accurate, then one can only conclude that 911 has the advantage with;

1. Weight (F12 is lighter)
2. Torque (F12 is torquier)
3. Traction (both RWD)
4. Aerodynamics (IDK about that)
5. Drivetrain (I believe they're both DCT)

So what gives? As mentioned earlier by other members, it's doubtful that Ferrari are overstating by over 100 HP but one has to wonder what's going on here. Where is all that power going?

 

I thought an F12 is about 3,600 pounds? I believe a GT3 is around 3,100 pounds
Is this correct?

500 more pounds should definitely play a factor.

 

Well, there are MANY other factors. just a few examples: weight over the rear wheels, transmission programming, tire size, tire compound, different environmental factors when the test is run, etc.

I'm not vouching for Ferrari, I'm just pointing out there are many, many other factors in play.



Mark

 

You nailed it with the last question.

The simple fact is that a RWD car is limited. If you take a 700 hp car vs a 1400 hp car that weigh the same and have the same size tires etc... same exact car and on the same exact street tire. The 700hp car will either be as fast or possibly faster. There is a law of diminishing return when it comes to HP and traction on RWD. There is a limit to that configuration.

now... you particular example... you are ignoring that the engine is sitting over the drive wheels on the porsche. That makes a WORLD of difference. That is why the car can launch so hard. Also I THINK the GT3 comes on stickier rubber than a standard F12.

 

Thanks, I was just about the look that up because I was pretty sure the F12 was considerably heavier than the GT3.



Mark

Edit: Just double checked. F12 =3,593lbs. GT3 = 3,153lbs

 

Ferraris are designed to be track cars not strip cars.

I used to have fun taking my F355 to various race tracks around Texas and nearby states. I would meet people with all kinds of cars. And for the first 10-15 minutes those cars were faster on the track, but after their water and oil systems overheated, I was left as the fastest car on the track. I can tell you that it takes 72 minutes (35 laps) to burn through a whole tank of gas at TWS and that the F355 did not overheat in the 105ºF weather that day.

Corvettes would not last 10 laps, mustangs maybe 14 laps, modified mustangs closer to 7 laps, non-turbo porsches could get close to 20 laps.

In a Ferrari sense of the world (endurance racing) it does not matter how fast you are if you can't do the distance/time.

 

Your''re right, I screwed the conversion.

F12 is 1525 kg (dry) according to this
Cauley Ferrari Showroom F12Berlinetta

GT3 is 1430 kg (3155 lb)
Porsche 911 GT3 RS Reviews - Porsche 911 GT3 RS Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

So that's where the 50% extra HP went?

 

Don't forget that where/how an engine makes power will have an effect on 0-60 times. For longer runs, aero will have a huge effect.

 

Again, you're leaving out a ton of factors. Also, you're only using one metric of performance. What's the 50-150 time for each car? That's where I think you'll really see the horsepower difference. I could be wrong, though, I have not checked.



Mark

Edit: I was able to 0-170 times for the F12 and GT3RS.

F12: 22.4
GT3: 27.1

 

Porsche put the power to the ground far better than Ferrari's but what about having the engine in the wrong place, how can it be!? Also Porsche launch control is likely better/more advanced than Ferrari's. At a role, no,way a gt3 is sticking with an F12 and this coming from a 991"gt3 owner

 

No. If you ever drive a 911, you will understand how it has much better grip from stop because of that weight on the rear wheels. It just sticks and goes.

 

Yeah I know, there was some rapid fire between Paul's post and my follow up correction.

 

formula (RPM * T) / 5252=HP

HP is not a constant. How fast does a given car hit a given HP? Torque and RPM change.

You are looking at peak HP and peak torque.

The speeds in a 1/2 mile has nothing to do with HP. At least I don't see "speed" in the calculation.

You want to know why Ferrari loses... could be many reasons. It's foolish to assume Ferrari lost there for they are lying about their HP.

 

NO. Maybe they hit higher HP much faster. What if Ferrari HP is only 200 until 4 gear at 4KRPM (made up numbers)?

Everyone is assuming peak HP starts at 0.

Yes all the other stuff will affect speed, but don't just assume more HP should win all other things equal.

 

F12
Max. power output - 769 HP @ 8,500 RPM
Max. torque - 519 LB-FT @ 6,750 RPM
Max. engine speed - 8,900 rpm (limiter)

 

So what is the calculation for HP?