still looks great! simple form resolution, yet very distinctive as a very young designer, he had the 'touch' at an early age destined for greater things
the Opel CD was the product of Opel Design under the direction of Chuck Jordan, the guy that eventually hired me, and a dyed in the wool Ferrari enthusiast At the time, that car was very important as a design statement, and IMO still looks good today
I saw this and have to say it's very heavy looking. And the "race version" looks, um... less attractive ......Over complicated design. The Bugatti EB110 is the last car I really liked from them. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Chuck made a major transformation of Opel during his time there. Manta, Ascona, Diplomat and others. Made Opel into something significant in the marketplace. Whatever version of the story on why Chuck went to Opel, the result was a complete corporate success.
yes, he truly turned that place into a place we all wanted to be a part of. I wanted so badly to go there on an International Assignment, but that never materialized Dave Holls & Hank Haga followed up with more cool stuff.......
my peeps were talking about that car recently the conversation went something like this: looks exactly like a Bugatti, not for the shy, OTT design 'you don't have to like it, but you sure can't ignore it' Bugatti 'spitting on the table' and telling the world to 'go stick it' etc. etc. gotta say, sometimes the Germans surprise even me!
I hope you're not referring to me Jerry, not sure how you rate toxicity. Sensible debate and truthful facts learning is a healthy thing. As jm2 mentions, although designers are sensitive souls, they can only make it to the top of their game if they believe in themselves and their thick skin allows them to take constructive criticism from others without rancour. The issue I'm finding here on ferrarichat, as a newbie, is that there are some people who are simply longtime confrontational provokers, seemingly enjoying taking silly viewpoints (on other threads, I must add) to continuously stoke the feuding fire. I personally find them fun to read. Peace bro. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So my question to the group is... does anyone think Bangles cars were beautfiul? The 7 series was GOD AWFUL looking. The E60 5 Series GOD AWFUL. The saved the 3 series only because it happened 5 years after bangle butt. The Z3 went from attractive to just weird in 03. Now mind you I owned almost everyone of these cars at one point... I think Fisker did a phenomenal job with the Z8. It would have been absolutely wonderful to see where might have taken the company... well...as long as he didn't incorporate the fisker Mustache into EVERYTHING.
From my point of view I have to blame Bangle for BMW's change from light and lithe looking sedans to almost Panzer heavy looking cars. His flame surfacing design theme ideology was definitely a breakthrough in car design as was Cubism to Romanticism. With moving objects such as automobiles, I much prefer the sexy designs of the 40's, 50's and 60's over the abstract-like designs that Bangle tried to create but, hey, a lot of Cubist lovers bought those Beemers! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ah, yes, the beauty query. This debate has no real resolution, because it all comes down to personal taste and what one's expectations and mindset are. My own personal opinion was the specific 'Bangle butt' never did it for me. Every car company on the planet embraced the Bangle decklid resolution one way or another. I am disappointed that the eagerness to use that as the 'go to' design for the rear ends just won't go away. My new ATS V coupe even has a version , this many years later. There are a million ways to solve the decked resolution. Not sure I would characterize the Bangle 7's as GOD AWFUL, but it was a needed IMO move away from BMW's consistent, over & over design vocabulary. I didn't necessarily 'like' it, but I accepted the need to move the design needle and develop another design language. Flame surfacing was Bangle's answer. Was it the right thing to do? Would they have continued to sell as many cars if they hadn't done what they did? We'll never know the answer to that question. Fiskars Z8, is in my eye a thing of beauty. The Fiskar Karma? Not so much. His latest car with B.Lutz is a real eye opener. Can't believe the same guy that worked on the Z8 did the car that was shown in Detroit last winter. Just goes to show, you don't hit a homer every time up at bat. Regarding the Panzekamphwagon look of the German brands, they've slowly moved off that look. Mercedes is the brand that has veered away from that look under Gorden Wagner. He has been on a mission to use softer sculpted fluid forms, and he's changing the core of what Mercedes Design was all about. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Cool site! Development pictures of another of my favorites, the 1967 Eldorado. The History of the 1967 Cadillac Eldorado - how it was developed
Hadn't seen that site. Thanks for sharing. Always fun to see the development process. Lord knows I've been involved with many myself. That car is another design hallmark from the Bill Mitchell GM Design era, that produced hit after hit. The team that did that car were part of the most talented design organization at the time IMO.
The Z8 is the epitome of retro time wasting. It serves no purpose in the world of modern design. In 100 years, people will think that the Z8 is 200 years old. The car has no design (forward) direction and therefore, had BMW used this car as inspiration for their lineup, all would have been lost. Sales may have gone up (Look, neat old cars!), but at what cost? I try not to always be negative, so I won't mention the interior
The interiors of the Z07 and Z8 were the most progressive thing about its design in my opinion. Check out its original layout and execution. It was done by a talented product designer named Scott Lempert. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not for me, thank you very much. The '90's was the decade of retro. Big time. Everyone was scrambling to do their own retro mobile. VW Beetle, Thunderbird, Mini, Prowler, PT Loser, Mustang, Cameron, etc., etc. The Z8 interior for me was a throwback to an earlier era, much like the exterior. I happen to like the exterior for its purity. It's one of those 'pretty' shapes that doesn't offend anyone, but it does look good to me. The interior for me was just a bit too much: 'looking in the rear view mirror'. But that's just me If it floats your boat, fantastic.
I can't agree there. Nothing throwback to the interior of the Z8 in my opinion except the steering wheel's spokes design. Any past designs to substantiate your view? What you call retro is, in my way of thinking, a modern and evolutionary interpretation on a vintage like design. Most car designs today use that process. If you don't agree, then would you not justify the 911 as being a retro design, given its strong influence and connection with the 356? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is probably where we can agree to disagree. That interior while it may be cool looking, didn't push any design envelopes. It looked to the past & executed. I may have a different perspective on Retro & that's fine. As a design strategy, Retro became very popular in the '90's. The difference for me between Retro & carrying/refining a design philosophy forward into the future are two distinct strategies. Porsche, Rolls, BMW, Cadillac, Ferrari, etc, have refined their brand design strategy by using elements from their respective rich histories to move their designs forward. The 911 is a 50+ yr old design. But they've done an excellent job updating what I believe is a truly classic design. I would never call that Retro.......it is what the 911 is. Morgan on the other hand keeps doing the same car over & over, with very little change in their design execution. The Camaro is sick in the 1969 mode and can't seem to get free. The Mini......what can I say? Mini, VW Beetle, 2 seat T-Bird, Mustang, Camaro all looked to their past, chose an icon and duplicate it in one form or another. The Camaro is stuck in the 1969 mode and can't seem to get free. The Mini......what can I say? For me personally, that's a design dead-end. But make no mistake, Multi Billion Corporations around the globe are using that design strategy and it works because many buyers want that nostalgia. Look at Mustang sales & you'll get my drift. I'm always amused whenever a new car comes out and the response is derision because of some design elements. The C7 Corvette taillamps come to mind. The Bentley Continental I believe, did a fantastic job of capturing the essence of the standout Continental of the '50's without literally aping the original. Of course there's a very fine line with this whole Retro keep your brand character cues as part of your design thing. The front end of a Rolls is unmistakeable from a mile down the road. Same for the face of BMW's. Cadillac 'fins' are another example of using your rich design history, but moving it further ahead, rather than just doing the same things over & over. As I've said over & over, this is far from a science. No right & wrong answers.Just different answers. Conversation without data is just an opinion, no more, no less. You're certainly entitled to yours, as I mine. But in the end they are just opinions. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Sorry, I misquoted Dr. Deming: 'Without data, you're just another person with an opinion' That's probably most of us at times.
For me the new Porsche isn't Retro, but here is absolutely no question where it comes from. It could only be a Porsche. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
who knew....BMW commission african artist to decorate 7 series interior Image Unavailable, Please Login
Epiotme retro time wasting? I think that title would be given to the Ford Thunderbird. I don't think the Z8 was retro at all. Yes... it had what I would call "classic" proportions but thats about it. It had a long hood and shorter rear deck. It was a roadster... it had a fairly upright wind screen. Grill was unique and even a departure from "kidney grills" as was the headlight arrangment. The tail lights were STUNNING. I think the car was painfully, organically, and simply beautiful. It did not try hard. It was just this beautfiul organic shape that just looked right. Also the interior was beautiful. Pictures do not do it justice. I remember the first one that came in... Sitting in it... smelling ALL of the leather. It was a leather smell that no other BMW had. It was the same as the 911 turbo leather smell (weird I know)... Then... you had the controls... REAL ALUMINUM! The little toggle switch on the window switch to select left or right window to reduce switch gear. Nothing was clearly labeled. You had to unravel the car. You needed to KNOW it. The lame navigation they put in the car was cleverly hidden behind a little door. They did an amazing job. Also, the bottom side of the trunk lid was carpeted so when you had a black car with a cream interior you had cream carpet on the trunk lid... it looked SO RICH and SO EXPENSIVE. I remember driving that car down the road and everyone looked at you as if you were piloting a space ship. I will own one. Yes. I will own one.
So it shall be then, let's disagree to agree and vice versa then. I still await an image from you to back up your reasoning that the Z8's interior is looking to the past in its design and execution. The reason that those cars you deem are not retro (Porsche, RR, BMW, Cadillac and Ferrari) is simply because they have undergone continuous generational updates. Take out the intermediate steps between their first rendition and their last and you likely would now be calling them retro designs. In the case of the Beetle, Mini, Thunderbird, etc., those cars lacked any intermediate generational updates and so, vice versa , had they have had them, today you probably would never dare to call them retro designs, despite their obvious links to their past heritages. They strongly stand as modern interpretations of their predecessors. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Development of the '77 GM B-bodies (particularly the Impala). Mundane, but pretty neat stuff. I still haven't found a great article on the '75 Seville. I'd love to see all the development work that went into that car. Vintage Review: 1977 Chevrolet Caprice ? Downsized By Design
Nice, thanks for the info! The original Seville happened very quickly in the Advanced Studios IIRC. Mitchell pretty much dictated what he wanted & made it happen
There's some pretty good stuff here. Not as much as I'd like, but better than anything else I've found so far. Design Notes: 1975 Cadillac Seville | Autos of Interest
