Whats with Ferrari and bogus HP numbers?

yes I agree there needs to be multiple cases of very low readings to confirm cars make less hp than stated from factory...too many variables.

btw are you guys familar with this article

How Ferrari Spins

wonder if its still true that Ferrari sends one car for straight line tests and one for track, and that customers cars are way slower. its written by Chris Harris.

 

I just want to say, Paul, top man, well done for your recognising your mistake and being man enough to apologise.

 

Thanks, I was the scoundrel here. 04g was honest with his claims, and I called him out. Spread falsehoods, and in the end was just flat out wrong. 04g should be taken seriously. He was asking a legitimate question from a non-trolling position. I was wrong to assume too quickly he was not asking the question in good faith.

For this 04G very much deserves my apology. I hope others that doubted him, give him a second chance and now approach his participation at face value. For those that were less 'trigger' happy, I commend you all. I was wrong, you all were right.

I wish you all the very best.

 

Good on ya Paul

Glad you're sticking around 04g

Thread of the month

 

Thanks 04g,

So back to your main question. What do you think is the most logical reason for the F12s slowness? It would seem your observations match real-world observations from owners' experiences.

I saw that dyno, and yes - that is very low to the wheels. I saw other dynos that have higher results with custom exhaust that would place it with the the advertised stock number.

I really don't know, but what is your guess?

Cheers

 

It takes man to own a mistake, this speaks volumes about your character

 

Coming from Chris Harris, you better believe it. I think he's right though. Ferrari can only monitor, censor and control so much. We have the internet here and the power truly resides in the hands of those independent users who go out, pound down and come back to write about them on forums; not magazines and weekly car shows on cable. Those outlets are more about advertising revenue than they are about real stats.

Too bad he dumped his TR after being teased about it

 

Older article. He also went on to buy and sell a 599

 

How about running an energy balance equation?

We can calculate the engines Power generation assuming engine is peaking along the stretch (input). I think we can safely assume that an engine free spinning is generating very little power regardless of RPM unless it's producing torque (resistance/brake) through the geartrain and onto the road.
We can easily calculate the cars Kinetic Energy at any given time (output). Assume constant acceleration.

(Energy in) = (Energy out) + (parasitic losses*)

We can calculate the Power consumption as the rate of Work over time.
We know the time duration of an average run

*The big unknowns are of course the parasitic losses such as heat and noise which are difficult to assess especially heat, after all, the cars kinetic energy is completely converted to heat and noise through the brakes and most often in less time than the power can be generated in the first place.

Here are some parasitic loses to consider:
-Heat generated through clutch slip (inertia or to avoid wheel spin)
-Heat generated through gear meshing and fluid transfer
-Heat and noise loss through friction between the tyre and road
-Wind resistance (heat on body, ambient air compression etc)

....am I missing anything?

If we can come close to accounting for the all the Energy produced by the engine, then we can resolve why the discrepancy in HP has no advantage on short flat out half mile drags. IOW, it's just not possible to utilize it all efficiently and in such short time.

 

I think that's a reasonable assumption, especially based on the dyno stats you presented.

Thanks

 

+1

Kudos to you for standing behind your commitment...well done Paul.

 

. . . because women don't make them. That's what my wife tells me!



Seriously, top marks to Paul for his honourable behaviour - an example to us all.

 

Thank you sirs, but it was the right to do, and it didn't change the fact that I pre-judged 04g unfairly. I was wrong.

I think he brings a valid criticism for some of the cars having at least the plausible reality of being overrated HP.

It's an interesting question, and I think only as people in the past suggested - a few dyno measurements of stock cars can only solve.

Be well all!

Cheers

 

On that note, are HP ratings typically spec'd at the crank or at the wheels?

 

+2 (or whatever number is up to now)

 

I read here that there's a 15% power loss between the crank and wheel. If so, the F12 would be estimated at:

585 dyno HP x 1.15 = 673 HP at the crank. That's ~ 10% overstated.

 

04G has duel premises here:

1) Does Ferrari overstate HP? (he posted evidence of that)
2) Do owners of the Ferrari brand value performance over brand mystique?

Of course, some (including myself) were fragile skinned and attacked his notions. Now that silliness is out of the way (I commend you 04g for holding your own under immense fire)

My analysis (for what it's worth)

Let me say it would not surprise me of his point number 1. Given his experiences and the comments of people that drag these cars, it would appear it is the general assumption is Ferrari does so. Why else would they seem to perform so poorly faired to the competition? I agree many variables could be involved, so personal anecdotal experiences, while valuable is not exactly a scientific test. I commend Sam for his analytical approach to try and answer the question.

Unfortunately, I think until you have a sizable dyno run across a multitude of owners, that we get a definitive answer. I'm sure a trial lawyer out there might be drooling at the prospect now!

I will be lying if I said that I was aware of the common impression of this before 04G brought it up. With myself owning a slow car, I would be 'smoked' at the events he participates in, so not exposed to this world. While 04Gs initial post may not have been the most diplomatic, his premise did educate me throughout this thread.

On to 04Gs the second point. Assuming the original premise is correct, the question would be why? I think some of the "BS" marketing that he said could be the very reason as much as I hate to say it. The Ferrari brand has a whole mythos behind it. They are as protective of it as a mother bear with its cubs. There is a whole lifestyle that promulgates not just the car itself but the lifestyle, image, and Ferrari 'way.' To a drag racer like 04g, this is of less importance, as pure speed is of vital importance. I argue that he is not alone in his sentiments.

My argument is the reason Ferrari *may* have sub-par performance is simply this. They 'don't' need too, they sell out every premium model the offer (best 1/2, 1/4, or not) Competitors don't have the as strong a brand behind them, so they do need to provide some inherent advantage. It is a sales battle, and if your competitor is cooler AND faster, why buy a Mclaren/Lambo/Porsche? They *have* to perform better to stay competitive.

04G wants Ferrari to up their game in the performance sector. I don't think anybody here can fully fault him for that. It also can be argued that the performance gap will never be large enough to affect sales and the majority of customer's contentment. Most Ferrari owners probably don't attend drag races, and that in itself could be the main reason Ferrari is content to have "good enough" vs. "benchmark" performance.

 

I said it once, I'll say it again, trying to accurately determine an engine's max HP through a drag race is a pretty poor way of doing it, not sure it's even remotely possible to get an accurate number.

Second, Ferrari's typically do not make good track cars, they really, really, really don't.

I know that blows some people away, how can the most performance oriented automobile not make good track cars? They just aren't made to be that, a track toy. Especially so when we are talking about a drag race and even doubly so when we are talking about the front engine production GT cars.

Now, if you really want a great track Ferrari, get one of the special models or even better, pick up a Challenge car. Now THAT would make for a good track car but even then, not so much for a drag race, there are better options than a Ferrari. There really are.

Sorry if that bursts anyone's bubble. But Ferrari isn't sorry, they couldn't care less.

-F

 

Sounds about right, you'll have to excuse me though as I'm suffering thru a brutal flu at the moment and it's playing keep away with my brains..

I had at first dismissed the Cd factor but after reading about Ferrari increasing the down force that will have a significant effect on speed beyond 100 MPH and esp when tickling 150+.

 

I believe that the accurate calculation would be 585/.85 which is equal to 688 HP, but what is 15 HP among friends

 

Slightly off topic, but Chris Harris was banned from testing Ferrari's after that article for a few years. I believe they have softened on the point recently.

Again, if he's wrong, that was the worst way to handle the situation.

This is the only way Chris Harris is allowed to test drive a Ferrari

Also, kudos to Paul for owning up to the bet.

With that said, there were others who were quite vitriolic towards OP, and were so obsessed with the topic as to start new threads. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/northwest/532770-ferrari-hater-running-his-mouth.html

Not to stir the pot, but to discourage such witch hunting in the future.

 

Ummmm about 20 weed wackers but now we're only about 6% below stated HP

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F12berlinetta