Mercedes at 1000bhp

Even if McLaren, RB, Ferrari get a jump on them with the new chassis regs they'll always have this in hand- not to mention the fact that they are already the strongest chassis and strongest aero (along with RB). Lewis vs. Nico would be boring for another 4 years..

Interestingly, a number of races ago Dieter Rencken asked them if they would start discussing the next engine regs since these expire in 2020. Even Paddy Lowe said they would look at what was necessary for the sport, balancing technology vs. spectacle and left the door open to not continuing with these PU's. Would sure be great to get our NA engines back. Hopefully Liberty can press the issue since viewership is down.

Analysis: Has Mercedes broken the 1000bhp barrier?

 

The chances of going back to NA engines are practically nil, I think.

I cannot imagine car manufacturers like Mercedes, Honda and Renault throwing away years of investment and research in the turbo hybrid power units to go back to old technology.

That would be going backwards...

 

+1 small displ+ Turbo-hybrid is the norm and is very much what major marques produce on a daily basis. Im happy for more power but NA is probably not viable now. Certainly Liberty must be aware of the lack of inspiration via noise on the tracks.

 

I agree, for the moderate term. However given the fact that the real future of road cars is probably pure electrification and F1 will never (hopefully) go down that road, it will eventually return to being purely about the spectacle and NA engines + KERS.

 

+1

Liberty care about ratings. Electric city car development is pretty low on their agenda

 

I agree guys. Liberty is in this for the long haul. Shouty engines = sell more.

 

Liberty have bought the major share holding for the rights to sell Formula 1 commercially around the World - They haven't bought the sport of Formula 1, so they cannot dictate to the FIA (who set the regulations for the sport), what power units the cars should have.

They can advise the FIA on what they think will sell and be popular, but they cannot tell the FIA what power units the cars have to have.

The precedent for that situation has already been set, with Bernie Ecclestone openly announcing his dislike of the modern power units and making statements that he will have that situation changed so that F1 reverts back to the old 2.4 V8 engines. Two years down the road and we still have the 1.6 V6 Turbo-Hybrid cars that Bernie was going to get rid of!

And what power unit are we going to be seeing with all the "big" regulation changes coming up for 2017? The V8's that Bernie wants back? - No, they'll be the 1.6 V6 Turbo-Hybrid's again.

Added to that, Liberty also have to take into consideration what the various car manufacturers involved in F1 want in regards to the technology on the cars.

If the manufacturers feel that the power units are not in keeping with the technology that they are now investing in their road cars, and are instead a big step backwards, then there is a risk of them leaving F1 - Then what are Liberty going to sell around the World?

At the end of the day, all Liberty are, are the latest commercial F1 franchise owners, who can set out their shop how the want, and they can give some input into possible future model ranges, but they don't actually own the sport that they are selling.

It's like a franchised Ferrari Dealership - They can suggest to Ferrari that they should start making manual gearboxes again because the dealers have customers who want them, but they cannot dictate to Ferrari that from now on they have to make manual gearboxes. They're simply there to sell the product that Ferrari makes, they don't own the product.

Naturally it's in the FIA's interest to listen to what Liberty say about the issues they might encounter about selling the product around the World, and where possible accommodate changes, but the FIA are not going to accept being dictated to any more, as used to happen in the old days with Bernie.




As for Mercedes hitting 1000bhp: It's interesting to note that there is no mention in that article of what qualifying peak power output Ferrari, Renault and Honda are achieving, and just how far down they are compared to Mercedes.

It's also interesting to note that motorsport.com are reporting: "What we do know, however, is that Mercedes is the class of the field in power stakes right now, as F1's engines return to the peak levels of power that were last witnessed in the mid-1980s."

Really?

Mercedes are making @ 980~1000bhp in qualifying trim.

Back in the 1980's that would be race trim! - Peak qualifying trim was @ 1400~1500bhp! (From a 1.5 litre turbo with no additional electric boost to boot! [and in BMW's case, from what was basically a production car engine block!] Granted they were five lap only, throw away, qualifying engines, but we are nowhere near getting back to the qualifying peak power outputs of the 80's, even with the hybrid technology!)


What today's 1.6 litre turbo/hybrid power units highlight for Myself, is just what an incredible engineering achievement those old 1.5 litre turbo's were some 30+ years ago, with their now prehistoric engineering and technology!

 

4RePhil,

If they posted torque figures these modern engines would be leading by a large margin. We also have to remember they used to use special fuels that are no longer allowed.
Pete

 

And no fuel restrictor.

 

Liberty won't make the rules, that's the privilege of the FIA. The FIA will bow to the car manufacturers because they are the one keeping the championship alive.

I repeat that the main players in F1 will not go back to "basic" atmo engine, when they want to showcase their hybrid technology. A return to basics would see Renault, Mercedes and Honda at least leave, and will not see any major car manufacturer join, IMO.
As much as I don't like it, we have to understand that F1 has become a technical platform with the sporting element vanishing from it.

A return to basic would have to be done with something like a specs engine, where different chassis would be powered by Cosworth DFV-like engines; we are talking about something almost like Indycar. Crude, noisy and entertaining for some, but bringing a certain decline to F1.

 

Liberty according to f1-live.com appear to be into gambling big time so that could be the future of F1 ... maybe this already happens but if not or otherwise big shame for the future IMO. All that risk, effort and skill just so somebody gets to make a few bucks on a bet!

Also virtual reality ...

Reference: Liberty sees virtual reality and gambling as growth areas for F1
Pete

 

Surely they can have hybrid engines sans turbo?

 

They can, but what would be the point? Just to make noise?

Turbo makes the engine more fuel efficient and ensures better combustion. It's an asset!

What would be the point of abandoning it in racing, when more and more of the automotive industry adopts it?

The trend in the motor industry is in downsizing engine, having less cylinders and using turbo boost to optimise combustion and maximise torque .

Haven't you noticed that some constructors are replacing 2L atmo engines in their range with 1L 3-cylinder turbo engines that are more powerful, more fuel efficient and give more torque!!!

 

If you were around F-1 in the 80's with the Turbos... there was plenty of sound, they were loud enough you could not talk when they went by...

as for Power - BMW made so much power their dyno could not rate it all... it did not go high enough. Renault, Honda and Ferrari all made in excess of 1200BHP at certain times... and the Tag Porsche engine did 1100 in quali trim. So if they were given free rein like back then just imagine what they would do with a .1 L increase in capacity...

I remember standing at eau rouge in 1988 - watching the McLaren's coming through and the sparks were amazing and the sound with the bap bap overrun... so cool... they shook the ground when they went past. I was just off to the right by the exit to the old pits... amazing.

 

The previous V8+KERS was exactly that.

With the exhaust energy recovery these will never be able to match those sounds. The single-turbo/exhaust outlet may have an effect too, those engines in the 80s had one turbo per bank.

 

Here is the solution to it all... ohh ya... I am the big problem solver LOL....


Electric turbos.


Have F1 develop electric turbos (already under development) it will serve as R&D for car manufacturers and they already under development.

Electric turbos keep turbos out of the exhaust stream. Electric motor powers the turbine instead of exhaust. Exhaust is essentially NA.

Plus there is zero lag. Good for racing and good for road technology.

This is were F1 and turbos are going anyways. Just get them there already

 

That is correct; it acts as a muffler in fact.

 

Where does the exhaust energy recovery system fits with an electric turbo ?

 

It's not a muffler, the exhaust path is unaltered. There's literally less energy for noise since it's used to drive the motor/generator that the shaft is connected to. These are hybrid electric turbos.

 

The round bin with the plastic liner.

 

But why add an electric motor to power the turbo, when it can be spun by wasted energy from the exhaust?
That's complicating things, I think.

Powering the turbo with an electric motor is only a cure for turbo lag, since the boost is not dependent from the revs.

 

They already have electric turbos

 

Really?

 

F1's Hybrid turbos are awesome and you want one in your car. Now

 

Thanks for that.

My question was: do they already have electric turbos in F1?