As you may know Brian I'm new here and honestly don't know how to manage the content and combine posts, I would be greatful if you let me know how it's done. It took me some time to figure out how to post the video. But be aware that my abilities will increase and I may swing some serous punches your way ��
It's not a fight, and certainly not a contest. Simply a taste and integrity discussion, with a few defensive people and a lot of reasonable people of different perspectives and experience.
Thank Brian for spending so much time on it. Don't you remember 15 years or so, when all of the brand model (BMW, Merc...) started to badly decline in quality build? From one generation to another, the level of finish, leather quality, button feel.....went significantly down. A RR ghost of today probably has a similar quality build than a 7 series or s class from 90s (with more leather, wood and chrome), but the plastics, wood, leather, and assembly are similar imo. At the same time, Ferrari was taking the opposite route (from the 348, 355 and then 360 and mostly 458 and v12s). Higher quality, better finish, no more (less) Fiat buttons, more cohesive interior design. I have not seen the Lusso in person and looked at FFs very very closely. I appreciate Brian's extensive review, as it makes me feel and understand exactly what is going on with this car from behind my screen. Let's just hope this is not the new path Ferrari is taking for all of its upcoming models.
You're welcome! Mercedes is mostly crap since 2011 or so ... it can happen here too. I hope not. It is sad that men with money are such babies in the face of a plastic horse any anyone who dare threaten the fragile ego that says "new is better", or "trust ferrari". I told my version of the truth on materials and gave some opinions on design integrity, and if some people can't deal with it as adults that's their issue. You seem to judge me for inciting people to do bad things? Are you the guy who blames the girl for being raped because she went out in a hot skirt? It's their job to be cool. I am a Fan of Ferrari ... I took the time because I wanted to share something you won't read from a reviewer who can't go there. I think RACE is bad news. I hope I am wrong.
First, let me start by saying I have never read a post by Brian L before. Therefore I have no bias there. Second, as someone who has no skin in the FF v. Lusso game - I drive a 458 spider, (my 5th new Ferrari) I have the following to say. 1) Outstanding, thoughtful assessment. Many thanks for a coherent, well described basis for your opinion. 2) You are completely correct in your assessment of Ferrari decontenting its cars. Speaking of my personal observation of the 488 v my 458, you see where Ferrari is slowly taking the bespoke quality out. For example, they have dropped stitching off passenger side dash. Reduced the size of the trim material on the dash front. The doors while having a "cooler" handle than mine, have abandoned the stitching there as well. IMO, one has to add many more Scaglietti, extra comp, or Tailor Made pieces to bring the car up to $300K appeal. Trouble is, you are now closer to $400K. Just as BMW, Audi, and Mercedes are going the Russian doll route in design/size, Ferrari using the same pieces in each of its cars I think also detracts from what should be each one's unique character. CaliT, 488, and F12 all use the same console bridge. Really? No matter how much more that piece would have cost to be different, that cost could easily have been passed on to the buyer. I have no issue with them eventually using a Chrysler A/C unit if it will blow harder than the cheap Italian one. I have no problem if they put in the "guts" of a Chrysler infotainment system as well if it works better. Just use a different user interface like Bentley or Rolls who use the VW/BMW parts warehouse. If I am to be completely honest, it is the Bentley Mulsanne Speed that right now peaks my interest the most. It has so much more workmanship in it than Ferrari at this point. I would need a second job and mortgage as well as needing to be taller (at 5'7" I am afraid I would look like I stole my dad's car) to buy one! But, the point is, another brand is more alluring to me now. I will be very curious to see how this all plays out. I truly hope it ends with me wanting another Ferrari even if only to find out it is out of reach. Best
Great analysis. I may not agree with all of your observations, but your contribution is appreciated. I also don't believe in the idea that everything newer Ferrari makes is neccessarily better for us all.
I am a Fan of Ferrari ...I think RACE is bad news. I hope I am wrong.[/QUOTE] I wish you were. I suspect worst thing to happen in their history with, to some, very serious unforeseen consequences.
I wish you were. I suspect worst thing to happen in their history with, to some, very serious unforeseen consequences.[/QUOTE] We can but enjoy everything that came before and hope there are some great cars still to come, where there undoubtedly will be.
It's unlikely that anyone at the factory cares, but here's my list of easy things that can be done on this car before sold to loyal buyers. 1. Stiffen up Sport mode considerably in the software: suspension, steering, pedals. Make it really obvious, and fun to drive. 2. Better quality door pull mechanism and better plastic handle (larger than FF, plastic shows it's flimsy nature) 3. Better leather. It's only money. 4. Paint the plastic grill and add aluminum ... and a metal cavallino. No plastic horses! 5. Thicker plastic on the front lower splitter and rear spoiler. Harder to do, subtle things: 1. Thicker metal overall and a little less insulation to balance the weight. 2. Hide the mounting locations for the plastic side sills that are visible in each wheel well. 3. Upgrade the quality of switches 4. Have an artist alter the fonts to flow better, more integrity Things I forgot to review: 1. Passenger visor mirror and light 2. more to come I'm sure ...
Even though I don't agree with the philosophy that going public is akin to selling your child it seems like Ferrari is making the same mistakes all high end luxury brands made in the 90s and early 00s. They all went for revenue expansion by pushing more product (and cutting expenses) at the cost of the brand. They all have spent the past 10 years (or more) correcting their mistakes by cutting down severely on licensing and improving quality and quantity control. Ferrari sold itself as a high end luxury brand in the IPO and not just a car maker. I am not sure it's long term investors will be very happy with it going for quantity over quality, even though quite a few people here believe that that is what all investors want. Long term investors like to see the company follow the vision that they were sold during the IPO and not short term profits that come at the cost of the long term. I personally am not a fan of confusing product lines (V12 and V8).
I see a direct line between RACE and two motors in the same chassis. And also the announcements from Maranello on the new factory set ups ... "cut costs by using the same platform for many cars". Sounds like a corporation to me, not an iconic luxury brand. I really don't see how you can go public 10% or 50% and have it not matter like it's 100%. As CEO in the back of your mind, you are thinking differently ... no?
Again the plastic horsey and grill is an immediate "hide your cheque book moment" IMO. There is no way I would pay that much money for a car, or any product, and happily receive such a cheap component as part of the whole deal. Hopefully there is an option for a real grill and horsey? But get used to it guys and girls this is the way of the future and until we ALL start putting quality before brand names and price this will continue to happen ... everywhere. Ferrari is just doing what everybody else is unfortunately ... which in itself is simply amazing and so short sighted! Pete ps: but they will sell because so many brain washed people keep buying new Ferraris ...
I hear you The MSRP of the Ferrari Four was around 300 and 4 years later The GTC4 Lusso MSRP is around 300 ... new screens, new engine and rear wheel steering, and 80% new car by all accounts. So how is it not cheaper made, it has to be for the same MSRP? This seems like common sense to me.
That totally depends on the management of the company (i.e. CEO) and to an extent the board of directors. There are still CEOs who run their companies like they are private companies (in a good way) but I have to admit those are few and far in between.
I don't think I would buy a Ferrari with a plastic horse on front...it says too much about the whole manufacturing attitude.
A few thoughts on this 1) big shifts in currency values from the time of FF development until today 2) I'd imagine Ferrari is not blind to pricing pressure on alternative cars, and the GTC4 was designed from birth to have a V8 and RWD version. (BTW not the first time, didn't they have to develop the 208 to meet compliance issues for the 308?) 3) a LOT of the R&D for the GTC4 was bought and paid for under the FF/F12 programs and shared with TDF....4RM, RWS, (new)front V12/DCT architecture, crash testing and homologations, et al. So, in reality, the development costs should have been lower as, while a lot of the car is different, it's not clean sheet different. 4) I'm aware of but no expert on what the various regulatory requirements (DoT, NHTSA, MoT, EU, et al) are for the 2017-on years. I do know that some countries want "softer" front ends to reduce pedestrian risk. I'm unsure if that's a good reason to swap aluminum for plastic. OTOH, the plastic is probably lighter and hopefully cheaper. Making RHD versions to comply with certain markets is already a necessary evil, I'd imagine they'd design a new car to meet the least common denominator wherever possible, though major markets (US) earn their own unique front/rear bumpers. 5) last, and FWIW, having seen/touched/sat in/ridden in the first F12tdf pre-production car, and now comparing to actual production cars, the "improvements" are pretty clear on a number of elements. I think the GTC4 that was out here for test drives was the Geneva car, had 10K miles on it already, and probably run hard and put away wet. Probably low odds the things you're catching are "pre-production" (since at this point it seems locked).
I want to believe that ... but the list of cheap parts is pretty long and why price a new car with an old car? Ferrari are traditionally releasing a new car that's more money to protect owners of the last gen, and it's a small run luxury brand, right? Are we that concerned with 10%? The V8TT has nothing to gain from a lower priced V12. What's the point if it's not bespoke quality? RACE is the only answer that makes sense on all levels. Can you name a few, that's interesting.
I recall years ago, when KLM Airlines had a new CEO, he sat on a plane, pulled down the tray table and saw a coffee ring. He said, if the customer sees we cannot even get that right what does he think about the way we service the engines? I sincerely hope this was a pre production issue or maybe even some crash reg in the US but will know shortly for sure. IF it is a production feature, then this tiny detail will regretfully be symbolic of so much.
Apart from cost saving or crash safety for pedestrians the only other reason for a plastic cavallino in the front grille would be if some sort of radar cruise control were available or fitted in the grille, but as far as i'm aware that is not available for the Lusso and hopefully never will be on any Ferrari!
Interesting development in this thread! I believe it is more complex that "RACE" is the evil factor here (I am still enjoying my 430 with plenty of cheap Fiat sourced switches and stalkes - long time before Ferrari's IPO....). I think it is much more complex - also a lot of luxury brands in and out of the auto business are listed or part of listed groups (Lambo, Porsche, Bentley, RR, LVMH, Hermes etc). Moreover, RACE remains very much controlled by the Agnelli's vehicle. 1) I believe the senior exec's - and especially the CEO is the main driver of Ferrari's strategy. 2) Our beloved Ferrari does not operate in a vacuum but in an increasingly more competitive world with more and more players entering the segment, and 3) In a market segment that is not growing.
I remember seeing the first 488 that came to USA and thinking what poor quality and materials. And the real cars showed up looking so much better. (Not sound unfortunately).
