Yes, the paint jobs on not only 360s but 430s have been terrible. As were range rovers at the time and many other cars. The CS label was merely to shorten my typing.
No problem. But, point remains a Stradale has several years to run before it becomes collectible. Frankly, if you had told me 5 years ago that 328s would sell for more than F360s, I would have asked you for some of whatever it was you were smoking. But, to me, the 328 market illustrates the point the collector market for Ferraris is very, very strange. It has been compared to the art market, but the analogy is at best imprecise. Think back several years ago to the Brit who paid monster money for a California at the Ferrari auction. The collective opinion at the time was he must have been drunk. Turns out, maybe he wasn't so drunk after all, huh? I dunno. I don't collect anything. Plus, I don't consider my cars or home as investments. I just find this stuff interesting as an ad hoc study of human nature.
The Donald has just stated that 'we are in a big fat bubble ..when interest rates go up the stock market will crash' etc etc (CNN first presidential debate) I guess the car market would also crash too?
The "special" cars already have an air of collectibility. As the production cars drop in value, the special cars have maintained and even gone up. The are a "poor man's" super Ferrari. As far as 328's, when Dino's are going for $300k-$400k, it was only a matter of time before 328's and 308's went up in value. Have a problem with $100k 328's? Blame it on $400k Dino's. As far as moving past 360's, these days 360's are the 308's of today. Oldish sports cars that have been passed by newer technology. Give them 30 years and they will become the new classics. -F
LOL at people who think the Stradale is not collectible. Now or in the future. Do you have any idea of the impact that car has among people who are in their 30s and will soon be able to buy them? It is a much much rawer car than any of the special V8s before or after it.
the stradale was an instant collectible. she will be a much stronger collectible than scuderia or speciale, and stronger than 16M or 458SA which are more marketing than soul. (while great cars)
Let's see. Let's compare a CS to a Dino. There were about 3,500 Dinos made compared to say 1,300 CSs produced. The CS wins that one. A Dino cost, what?, $15,000 back in the day? And let's say the current value of a Dino is $350,000. If I have crunched my numbers right, that's over 2000% appreciation in over 40+ years, which averages out to about 5% a year. I don't keep track all that much, but I understand Stradales trade for about $200K, which is close to original sticker. So in 10+ years, a Stradale has appreciated exactly zero. Moreover, if a Stradale matches the Dino's appreciation, its value will be $4.4MM in 30 years. This is why I think "investing" in Ferraris is silly. There are so many different demand variables, and they are constantly changing. They're just cars. From my perspective, you couldn't pay me to buy a Dino, but I would most certainly buy a Stradale. But, I'm a driver, not a collector or an investor.
First $15k in 1970 is +/- $90k today so the valuation/increase is roughly 4x. Secondly, why compare a 40 years car vs a 12 years old one? I doubt any Dino was worth its MSRP in the late 70s/early 80s when they were 12 years old. Furthermore a Dino is from an era that is completely gone whereas the Stradale's isnt. People look at a Dino today and they know the car is vintage. People look at a Stradale today and they would think it's just another new Ferrari. Finally, just because one car is "highly" collectible does not mean the other is not collectible.
You know better than me. I don't have a collectible bone in my body. One way or the other, we're all tenants in this life.
We really can't compare the appreciation of a Dino and a CS as one car is modern classic and other post war classic. 20 years ago, a Dino was worth what? 30-40k? Less than its actualized price new? No one wanted them. If cars are still street legal 30 years from now, we'll see where a CS stands. The 20some will now be 50, have money, and will pay hefty prices for the few CSs who will have been maintained at high cost, or renovated. Not sure whether the 20 some year old chaps of today will put 400k (at contant value) in a Dino 30 years from now. A Dino is like the Porsche Boxter with Ferrari Badge of its days. It had nothing really "special", and still made it great. (better than the 308gt4 and so on). CS is far more than that at it's birth, and an exceptional driving experience (still today), which the Dino has never been. (and I love Dinos)
Went back a couple of pages and you guys are discussing the 360 CS and whether or not it is "collectable"? Aren't they trading at 2-3X a regular 360? Something is afoot, what's the argument? Say there was a hypothetical F40. Lets call it the F40 LT with an insulated all padded leather interior and a slightly de-tuned engine that was a bit heavier and .5 of a second slower 0-60 what do you think those would be going for? 1/3rd to 1/2 of the present value of the more "special car"? The Challenge Stradale Luxury Edition (aka Modena) is sitting in a slump. When you have cars that "look" like the collectable and "sound" like the collectable and drive "similarly" to the collectable, in normal conditions, that are sitting in a trough of a depreciation cycle how can the "collectable" version take off? I am not up on 911's anymore; but does the 2-3x delta between a regular old 911 of a similar era and the "special" one still show in the current market? Disclaimer: Meant to be rhetorical and not to offend anyone.
Since I threw the Cs into the mix and read the posts that followed. Yes time is precious, and for some with precious time and lots of money the price paid today is irrelevant. But thats not he majority of buyers of 100-300k collectable cars. The sub blue chip collectable car market is made up of those with relatively unlimited means and those with adequate but not exess means. The latetr group buys more carefully and many are buying for fun and investment, with a priority on investment. If or when they stop believing in the hype and exit overall current prices for a model are not supportable, whether its a dino or a Cs. My point is a not insignificat percentage of buyers of under 300k ferrairs, or 500k ferraris (the exact price number not so relevant) are economy and hype sensitive. The hype(including investment potential) is why they came in, the free money allowed them to. When the hype deflates or money gets expensive they are out and 20% or 50% or some number inbetween of buyers exit. Its these same buyers, in for the hype, and and the dealer games(new ferrari dealrs too) that supports the instant craze. Yes the speciale is awesome, but if you look at all the low mileage ones that are about, the ones being flipped by first owners you know too many buyers didnt get them because they were just so superlative to drive, and these buyers can and will exit. External economic factors may cause the exit, or the hype will just go too far and loose the audience, that happend with american muscle and will happen with many fcars.
Yes, a great 1973 911 s is about 200k. A number matching 1973 2.7rs would start in the low 500s for a crappy car and quickly escalate from there for great examples or for a lightweight. It's just about diminishing marginal returns and applies to lots of things in life, not just porsches, ferraris...
Like I said, the demand curve for Ferraris is complicated. You have enthusiasts. You have collectors. You have speculators. You have scared money. You have IPO money. If anyone can make a prediction based on all that, they're better than me.
Agreed, but we seem to be seeing some sort of shift, whether its just a breather or a 20-30% repricing no way to know, but it does not appear to be a bubble popping. One thing for sure, even dealers agree poor condition cars are no longer selling on shiney paint and hype.
Its funny how the Dino owners couldn't even park with the "Real" Ferraris back in the 70s, kinda a crazy Grandmother you wanted to keep secret silent in the basement now they are respected, not by me though lol as whats missing is the performance to go with the looks and I wouldn't want to be driving a car that women call "cute" lol You could get a 246Gt Dino less than $10k back then, I remember my dad lusted after one while I lusted after a real Ferrari like a Boxer. There were only so many super great cars made back in the day, now almost every sports car from then can be called collectible, a truly incredible rare classic car is worth something but when you get into mass produced 73 911s thats pushing it. When I made the decision several years ago to sell my Viper Green 1977 930 it was either that car or the Ferrari 355 I had was gonna go, I didnt hesitate for a second the Ferrari offered a superior driving experience compared to the 930 and so went the 930 to a German buyer. If you buy something it should be you think its something great not gonna make money as you may be stuck with it upside down $$
Going back to the Stradale issue, an "Instant Classic" is a oxymoron at best and a marketing tool are worst. Don't misunderstand. Of all the loves won and lost, I regret selling my car the most. But, it has a ways to go to become a classic.
Furthermore, here's my take on the future of the vintage market. Old Ferraris are no more immune to global market forces than any other asset. If as many believe, including me, we are headed for worldwide deflation, nobody will get out of here alive. That said, vintage Ferrari prices tend to be sticky. Most of these cars are owned by people who have the staying power to weather a financial storm. Yes, those on margin will get hurt and have to dump their cars. And, yes, we will see some generational shifts where the "kids" don't want some junky old car that smells and leaks oil. But, I don't see a wholesale dumping of vintage Ferraris. This means prices may pull back a bit. It also means the era of record breaking sale after record breaking sale is probably over. But, again, I don't see any slaughter on Maranello Avenue. Of course, I could be wrong.
I've typically thought that "old car" markets and "new car" markets typically do not intersect, but lately I've wondered if the endless barrage of $1mm "limited offering" vehicles is siphoning the casual billionaire car collector's attention away from the classic car market. I don't think market data supports a coming crash of the new "specialty car" market anytime soon, as manufacturers still seem to be able to easily sell out all of their "500-car-run" offerings before production even begins. Take the Ferrari Aperta. 209 (probably eventually more like 250) units sold for $2 million before production - that's $400,000,000 for a car we simply cut the roof off of, thank you very much. Didn't make the cut for your McLaren P1? No problem, there's another one coming in a year or so. On and on. Not to mention what price these used hypercars fetch in the aftermarket, which can be up to 50% over MSRP.
agree... everything gets hit at some point. However, I think that Vintage Ferraris do have a special spot. They are almost an alternative currency. The more emerging 2nd and 1st world countries that come on board the more buyers for these rare rare cars. Again, with as few as several built to maybe a couple hundred... the demand will always always be high. The world is a big big big place. With 7.2 billion people. only 39 souls need to think a GTO its a 50 or 100 million dollar car. And then... the rising tide raises all ships
A POV outside the car world http://www.fa-mag.com/news/vintage-porsches-are-rising-as-the-next-blue-chip-classic-cars-24395.html
