MSD ignition in a Dinoplex Case! No Points & Fully Laptop Programable

It has been a while since I posted anything technical so I thought I would finally spill the beans on a very special ignition system that Adrian and I have been working on across the Atlantic over the past 3 years or so. It all started when I went to re-build the advance mechanism on my distributor. Upon inspection I found two major flaws. One is that the system is very time and labor intensive to adjust properly. Second is that once set, it can only get worse and requires periodic maintenance to keep working. Knowing little about electronics I turned to Adrian in Germany for the answer and so began our quest for a better way. Adrian was the electronics brain and I handled the mechanical fabrication and testing.

Here were the parameters we laid out:

- Use tried and tested mass produced parts (nothing custom or home made)
- Everything must fit in the Dinoplex case
- Must look 100% stock on the outside
- Must do away with breaker points in the distributor
- Must do away with the weighted advance mechanism yet still allow for the setting of an advance curve.

To this end Adrian recommended that we use an MSD 6AL-2 programmable ignition mated to a Lumenition optical trigger. In order to get away with not having a mechanical advance a special distributor shaft would have to be made that would eliminate the advance as this would now be calculated electronically. The process was long (involving many FedEx packages) but in the end we got it figured out and I am happy to report that the system works wonderfully well.

So what are the advantages? Here is a list:

- Advance is setup via laptop and is infinitely adjustable. Dyno tuning allows for setting an advance curve that is perfectly optimized for the available fuels with changes taking seconds rather than hours to achieve and test. Performance is unbelievable.

- MSD 6AL-2 is a mass produced and well supported ignition that has proven to be rock solid reliable in the aftermarket world.

- Once completed the system is 100% maintenance free meaning that lubing points cams and advance mechanisms is a thing of the past.

- Optical trigger does away with unreliable points and offers accurate timing.

- MSD offers two stage programmable rev-limiter as part of their software adding an extra layer of engine protection

So far I have logged over 5000 km with this setup and it has been nothing short of fabulous. The car starts like a Honda and pulls strong right to redline. Plugs never foul and I can still use the original Cavis spark plug wires. Top to bottom it is 100% invisible once installed and is a wonderful mod for those who want to drive their Dino.

In the next few posts I'll document some of the build. First up is the ignition and getting it into the Dinoplex case.
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With the MSD now confirmed to fit it is necessary to get it properly fixed. To do this a special bracket was fabricated along with some aluminum plates that would transfer ignition heat to the Dinoplex case. Once assembled all contact points were coated in heat transfer grease. Eventually all the wires were run through the plastic connector again making it all invisible to the outside world.

Again here are some photos to guide you through the process:
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The real treat came in the distributor where the internal shaft and advance mechanism was replaced for a billet custom shaft. To add to the design we even laser cut out of stainless steel (later powder coated flat black) the chopper wheel for the Lumenition optical trigger as well as a custom mount for the trigger. This ensures a perfect plug and play installation that allows the distributor to be returned 100% back to original with no damage of any kind.
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Fantastic ... Will anybody carry out a ' kit/ mod' service ??
I.e. We send out old unit in with the distributor and get back a plug and play unit ....
Sounds expensive though ??

 

I have followed your ignition endeavor for the last couple of years. great work as always from you and adrian. But Rob please enlighten us..... This is a super setup and adobtable to all 246/206 series i gues? Do you plan to fabricate and sell some of the custom parts for the distributor....that would be wonderful. Are there any needs for a coil or are the high voltage output going directly from the msd unit to the distributor? Regards peter

 

Peter I am not certain if the internals would fit in the longer Dinoplex used by the earlier 206/246 but I can only assume the operation of the electronics are the same. The biggest part of the job is getting the MSD internals into the Dinoplex case. This of course only matters to the concours crowd as the ignition is really quite hidden when installed. Much more practical is just using the MSD as it comes out of the box and conceivably you can do this by mounting the Dinoplex in the stock location totally as a dummy and then hiding the MSD box somewhere else. It is not that big and requires few wires so this is surely doable. The spark still comes from the coil so all of that is retained but I used an MSD coil painted and decalled to look like a period Marelli part.

Assuming the issue of the MSD untouched vs MSD in the Dinoplex itself is taken care of then all of the work resides in the distributor. To this end you would need one of my special shafts, an optical trigger mounting plate, and a Lumenition optical pickup. Because I re-made the chopper wheel you can buy just the optical pickup and save a bit of money there. As mentioned everything is totally reversible so it is nothing more than screwing pieces in.

Once assembled the ignition parameters are set by laptop and you can mimic the stock Dino settings or come up with your own advance curve. Because it is all electronic it is perfectly accurate and will not vary with the passage of time. I have to say that plugging a laptop in to tune your Dino is incredibly cool especially when the results are so positive.

Of course the last question is 'will you sell these?' At present I have a few extra bits but I am very busy with other projects so I am not sure if this will ever go anywhere. Adrian and I have put a heap of work into the project, and the results are spectacular, but I am just divided as to whether it is worth pursuing as a business. I already know there is no money to be made here but if I commit to selling something I would also like to be able to support it and right now I just struggle to see how I could.

 

That is so cool!
Very well thought out and it looks really nice! Really worth it to get rid of the advance mechanism.
Please explain what regulates the advance, is that the billet shaft your talking about? And does the shaft need a lot of machining to mount it in the distributor?
I made something similar for my Fiat Dino (without the good looks you have) by mounting a 123-ignition distributor that triggers an msd unit, but your setup with the original looks is much nicer.
For parts in case people would want to do a conversion, I have reproduction dinoplex cases, baseplates for the optical sensor and aluminum waterjetted chopperwheels for the luminition optical sensors.....

 

Excellent and simple setup! I could imagine it would be easiest to keep the original odd sized Dinoplex box and the coil in place and mount the msd unit close to it but still hidden by the aluminum panel that nearly covers the entire ignition system anyway. "Only" thing needed then is the magical shaft you have designed and some shopping for standard parts as the pickup and corresponding trigger wheel. Reversing back to original setup will then be very easy if that should become a wish later on. Only extra wiring will then be a couple of wires between the distributor and the msd unit I guess + some connectors to the existing wires already in place for the Dinoplex system?

 

Here is a photo of the shaft that goes in the distributor. As you can see it is solid and replaces the entire shaft that is currently in the distributor. The chopper wheel is a separate piece held in with a nut and I have made all of these pieces and put them together as one assembly as seen in the pic. The advance is calculated electronically inside of the MSD so that when the engine is at a certain speed the ignition will automatically add the necessary retard based on the advance curve that is downloaded to the unit. All of this can be seen graphically using the MSD software which even allows for live viewing when the engine is running. It may sound complicated but it is incredibly simple to use. As for the shaft once you have the part it requires to only be installed with no machining of any kind. Again this is totally reversible with no damage to the original distributor. I would say that with the correct parts you can covert a distributor in much less than one hour (this of course assumes the distributor is removed and on the bench).
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Beautiful component(s). The system reminds me very much of the Electromotive XDI system I installed on my 308. Only difference is that on the XDI system the trigger unit is placed directly on the crank shaft and the distributor is eliminated by use of single coils for each cylinder.

 

Great wotk, Bob!

Andres

 

Not to quibble, but the "retard" is done inside the MSD, and the static timing is advanced to "all-in".

 

Rob,
As Peter and you mentioned, the shaft/wheel assy is the key component. If you (understandably) opt not to market a complete kit, would you consider producing more of these shafts and/or choppers? If that's (understandably) not feasible, would you consider drafting, or even sketching, a blueprint that we could purchase? That would surely give us a big head start in machining the 'magic' shaft.
Thanks for mulling this over...and kudos to you and Adrian!
Cheers,
Coop

 

Well done,
But isn't the solution rather expensive for the benefit? It does look well done and the ability to program an advance curve can give a slight edge in performance over a properly done mechanical advance. However, a well made distributor with a properly lubricated advance mechanism and properly hardened joints and wear surfaces will last a very long time without going out of tune. (easily over 100 thousand miles) Also, despite the ability to set a fixed advance curve through a computer, it can't compare to a modern platform that has the advance adaptable to differing driving conditions and quality of gasoline without user intervention. There simply are not enough inputs to accomplish the task millisecond by millisecond. If you get a bad load of fuel, you could still end up getting out the spanners to retard the timing unless the laptop is nearby. The other drawback with electronic timing, is rotor phasing when using a distributor. If the advance curve is large, the rotor must be in a sweet spot to prevent cross-firing. Centrifugal advance keeps rotor phasing spot-on regardless of the amount of advance.
I wish you luck with the system and it will probably last well. On old cars without garages stocking parts nearby, I prefer simpler systems with inherently greater reliability while being much easier to troubleshoot and fix on the side of the road. Fred

 

Rob,

I have been working on a similar system but used the Superformance distributor, stripped out the mechanical advance and points etc and replaced this with a hall sensor trigger.

Again its all reversible so an original dizzy can be modified if necessary.

The existing MM box was stripped out and fitted with a much smaller programmable ignition unit to the one you have used and doesn't require the large heat soak either.

In my opinion it is a far superior set up to the mechanical system and has very precise timing especially when fitted with a throttle position sensor. It makes dyno tuning that much better.

Tony

 

I would certainly consider selling some of the parts needed with some basic setup information and shopping lists but it would have to be with a clear disclaimer that I am not TECH SUPPORT. This would never be a money making enterprise but I can see it as a huge time sink and right now is a really bad period for me to be distracted. As for releasing a drafting of the shaft, a huge amount of time has gone into perfecting it so I am not quite ready to publicize the IP surrounding it. I hope you understand.

 

Fred certainly you have forgotten more about ignition systems that I have ever known so I take your observations to heart. To respectfully offer my counterpoint I would like to make the following rebuttals:

- Once developed the whole system is actually quite economical. All of the parts including the MSD are about $750 which should be cheaper than the full re-build and re-calibration of just a Marelli distributor by a specialist (let alone the ignition box). Add in the fact that it will be more accurate and with no maintenance ever for me it was a no brainer.

- I totally agree that this system cannot compare with a modern microprocessor, fuel injection, lambda sensors, and all the other great things we now take for granted. It is however a marked improvement over stock while retaining a concourse perfect look for those interested in maintaining the original appearance.

- We spent a ton of time getting the rotor phasing just right and have not found any cross firing problems in running very different advance curves with our testing. I suspect that within the range the 246 motor operates in we are ok with this system. Realistically once the advance curve is set you can forget ever looking at the ignition again shy of replacing worn out cap, rotors ,cables, or plugs. If you drive that much kudos to you!

Lastly as for the pieces here is a pic of everything needed to to the conversion if you are ok with using the MSD as it comes from the box. As you can see it is not a lot of parts and does away with the points (boy do I ever hate points) and the hard to adjust advance mechanism.
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I certainly didn't want to diminish the quality of the work or the results. It looks incredibly well done. I suppose I am just old fashioned. You see, I prefer points because when triggering a Cdi, they wear so slowly that maintenance is almost a non-issue. I haven't found a difference in spark scatter between a hall effect pickup or points. I presume an optical trigger would be no different. From what I can determine the scatter present is a function of using a distributor as opposed to what is within the distributor. That is, providing the distributor is in good shape to begin with. Points can also provide a backup system and make troubleshooting much simpler.
In light of the cost of having a distributor rebuilt and the advance mechanism tuned, I can see the appeal of your system. There are fewer and fewer people who do this work.(That dizzy looks like a real dog to work on compared to some) I can also understand the fun of knowing what the advance curve is and being able to tweak it as necessary. Very nice work and congratulations to both Adrian and yourself. Fred

 

Great work - I love updating systems where the result looks original.

I run a Lumenition system with a Bosch ignition inside the Dino box. The engine ticks over very well. Like you I ran the wires through the original plug.

I have a couple of questions. Where did you make provision for programing? Do you leave the case open and then close up the case when you're satisfied with the programing? Secondly, did you use the MDS "grey" wire for triggering the tach? If so, how did it work? I still don't have my tach working correctly.

If you decide to make a run of the shafts and related parts, please let me know. Again, impressive work.


Ken

 

Ken to answer your questions:

- With the MSD guts in the Dinoplex case I do need to remove the cover in order to access the download cable. Of course I could cut a slot in the case to give me access but it is so rare to change that I did not want to damage the original case. Of course if you use the MSD as shipped then there is full access to the download port.

- Yes I did use the grey tach lead for my tach and it works perfectly with no adaptations or anything special required. I also confirmed that the tach was accurate using a digital timing light with an RPM readout.

 

'absolutely understand, Rob!

I was hoping that we could encourage/persuade you to market the shaft (shaft & chopper, as an assembly?) as a minimum, and the chopper and bracket for the optical trigger, if possible. Of course, the bracket and blades for the box would be icing on the cake for those who would like to make the MSD disappear. But, beggars can't be choosers, eh?

We know that you have personally absorbed much of your R&D and production costs on all of the other cool items that you have shared with us at The Store. I do appreciate your tenacity in cranking out the super-quality parts, and expect that you would price these new pieces accordingly so that we can help you to recover your investment on the dizzy project. That just seems right.

Keeping Fingers Crossed,
Coop

 

Very nice work! If you sell the parts for the distributor mod, I would be interested.

 

Rob, nice work!!
Did you spend some time tuning the advance curve?

 

Ah now I see it's a programmable MSD ignition, never knew it existed...
But is it really necessary to make that shaft? You most likely have a good reason for making the shaft instead of locking your original advance mechanism and using that shaft? Is that because you wanted to route the wiring thru the bottom of the distributor where would normally be the advance mechanism? Just asking out of curiosity

@Fred Winterburn: Normally the rotor phasing is an issue with distributors but I currently found out that these marelli distributors work differently than most distributors. With most distributors the rotor stays indeed exactly aligned with the contacts in the distributorcap because the rotor is attached to the camlobes. With these marelli distributors the rotorshaft runs thru the camlobe so the phasing of the rotor compared to the camlobe varies.
Don't really understand why they did that because the original rotor is quite narrow so at idle it will be pretty far off from the contacts in the distributorcap as well as at full advance. Offcourse half way the advance curve it's nicely aligned. A lot of newer style rotors are much wider at the tip to compensate for this.

 

There are a number of reasons for making the shaft instead of trying to lock the original advance mechanism:

- Locking the advance mechanism in a non-destructive way is challenging. In the end I did not want to destroy original parts.

- Installing the Lumenition chopper wheel is already a challenge with the original distributor as the fit is not perfect and requires some engineering. The custom shaft allows for a perfect fit and installation every time.

- I wanted the chopper wheel precisely aligned and a new shaft that perfectly indexes the wheel was important to achieve this. An early prototype had a grooves cut in the shaft that would perfectly align the plastic chopper wheel with a circlip grove that would hold it in place. This was later scrapped as the extra machining time for these grooves was much more costly than just making a new chopper wheel and fixing it with a bearing nut. In the end we had a much cleaner assembly that cost less to make and replaced the plastic wheel for a metal one. All improvements worth the extra development time.

- The shaft without the bell does offer more routing options for the wires as you noted because half of the distributor is now totally empty rather than being occupied with the advance mechanism.