The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

My understanding is he bought it as a replica to simply enjoy, and apart from the desire for it to have some DNA from an original P4 then Jim does seem to favour this car more than his undisputed original so I doubt it will be sold anytime soon, not like he needs the cash either I would think.

 

I don't think you understand how Mr. Glickenhaus works. He is obsessed with proving himself right.

From what I recall, Mr. Glickenhaus wanted to collect the LeMans race cars. Unfortunately for him, he was unable to buy a P4 at any price. Frankly, the whole thing appears to be a mash up of Hamlet and Moby Dick. If you recall, things didn't end well for Captain Ahab.

 

but

Briefly this car was owned on paper by a relative of my son in law in Italy but I paid for it. In Italy to own any car one has to own a home. and this person owned several houses and cars. My wife and I made five month long trips to Italy and drove the Ferrari mostly in central and southern Italy and Scicily. We drove around with a letter in Italian explaining that the "owner" was loaning this car to me. There is so much much more to this story and I could go on and on but I am not sure Bob Lay would appreciate my taking up too much space. I will close by saying to this crowd that if one ever gets an opportunity to drive a Ferrari in Italy sell what you don't really need and find a way. Sell the yacht, mortgage the house, skip a few alimony payments, what ever it takes and do it. I still look back at those four years and wonder how I pulled this off or was it all just a dream. Then I get the photos out, and yes, it's really us and the car is for real.We really did this. And in closing a friend of mine still has a picture on his fridge of the car and like to tell people it's his. Enjoy tong'scew

 

I can see this line of thought.

Yes but then #0854 became available and he bought that, a 100% genuine (even though DP once owned it) P412 that raced at Le Man's.
Pete

 

There is some amount of vitriol about Jim but he was quite open that he attended RMs Maranello sale of 0858 but his idea of value was less than reserve. That action doesn't scream obsessive collector imo

 

It came across more that he was playing the long game with 0858 at the auction and hoped to snap it up later down the line for less. It was not seen as a plum example back then either otherwise it would have no doubt sold.

I am certain Jim wanted to also put it back to P4 spec which is why it came across as a bit double standards when he was adamant post sale/during reconversion that it could never be one again when not just its DNA, but its skeleton, heart/soul and limbs were pure and original/traceable P4 from inception unlike his version of 0846

 

You should start a thread. Would love to see the pictures and hear the stories. I've always found you passionate about Ferrari's and would love to see what you did with one in Italy. Cheers.

 

You're certain?

So, all these posts and many others of Napolis were all just an elaborate ruse for the benefit of Fchat, as a part of his long game?

What gives Paul?

I like Jim. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he's ever written, said or done- but I don't understand where your coming from.

 

That must have taken you quite some time to trawl through this thread, find then multi quote, but as you say you are not biased in any one direction!

Its clear Jim wanted a real P4.

Buying Pipers replica was the next best thing.

However 0858 was without doubt a real p4 in disguise, converting that back to P4 spec would have provided the real deal.

For a long time though nobody was prepared to pay the asking price in its last ugly uncompetitive guise .

I would imagine Jim hoped to pick it up post auction for a lot less, Talacrest put a spanner in the works however by taking the gamble and relying on the cars previous provenance to provide a profit post conversion.

Are any of the quotes you list pre auction? or are they all post sale to Talacrest?

If it had been Jim who purchased and converted 0858 back to P4 spec then his fanbase would never have attacked him like they did Talacrest for doing so.

Your quotes show you cannot have it both ways, if Ferrari say 0858 as a P4 is gone for good then you also have to fully acknowledge they have said exactly the same about 0846 and that has never been retracted by them.

 

Fchat search function is quick and easy. If you remember these conversations and were a part of them, it takes no time at all.

I like Rob Lay. Rob Lay doesn't think Jim owns the real 0846. Does that mean I'm conflicted, or does that mean you need to revisit the concept of bias, mate?

Yep.

Yep.

Nope.

Fixed that for you mate.

You're absolutely right that in its last guise, 0858 (and 0860) were uncompetitive. I happen to find the 350 Can Am a thing of beauty. I realize that's subjective. I also love the 212 E Montagna and think a 610 or 710 Can Am would be a wonderful thing to have simply for what it was. Generally speaking I'm not a fan of the Abbott-bodied 212 but from a preservation sense, it's a shame it's gone.

Jim was interested in it as a 350 Can Am, he bid on it at auction (April 2009) up to 5MM Euros/7.5MM USD and he was the only real bidder at that stage in the auction.

The quotes I'm citing in this post are pre-auction.

But he wouldn't have as I've shown. That's why I asked you in my previous post about your certainty.

Ferrari built 0858 as a 330 P4. They later converted it to a 350 Can Am and that's what it was when it left them. Someone can 'undo' their work but they're kidding themselves if they think that 'makes' it a P4. It hasn't been a P4 since 1967. You can 'make your own P4' out of it, which is what happened in the last few years, but that's not the same thing. It has always been what it is.

Now, 0846 is a different deal. After it was wrecked, Ferrari wrote off the chassis as 'distruta'/destroyed. This is a legal designation that has confused a lot of people. This is a record keeping notation they made for their files that occurred when they made the determination not to make repairs to the chassis nor to keep using it. 0846 was written off the books, chassis was stripped and 'tossed out the back'. No one has ever asserted that Ferrari put the chassis in a press and crushed it like an auto dismantler, and in fact nothing like that occurred. They just binned the chassis. Nonetheless, some people see the word 'destroyed' and reach the wrong conclusion.

Ferrari writing the chassis off for its books has zero to do with what happened to the actual physical chassis once it left their custody. Does the chassis or part of it (if so, how much) still exist? I don't know if anyone can answer that with absolute certainty.

What does Jim own? He has made his position clear for many years.
What's my position? I have always been open to the possibility that what he has could be 0846. I'm also interested to see how Steve's recent photo analysis factors into the ultimate determination of what Jim owns.
Why? I have done a lot of historic preservation work that has included forensic examination(s) and research necessary to understand what things are.
I have worked on the chassis restoration of one of the 08XX sister cars. I spent an afternoon at John Hajduk Sr.'s shop where he showed me the big 512 project he did. I don't know Sal, but his reputation precedes him. In short, I trust the mechanics/restoration specialists that Jim has worked with.

I don't care that Ferrari (the corporation today, nothing to do with Enzo and history) lets Jim 'put 0846 in his garage' on their owner website. I have no earthly idea what Jim is going to present, nor when.
People are welcome to do what they want with respect to speculation. But in the meantime, while the guy is in absentia, it rubs me the wrong way when people post things that can be viewed as ad hominem attacks.

We can agree to disagree on a lot of this, Paul. It isn't and wasn't my intention to start some flame war with you.
Here's the bottom line for me:
Jim has always been generous in sharing what he has with the community. One of Jalopnik's posts about P4/5 is what originally led me to Fchat 8years ago.
Jim, as we all know, owns and is restoring 0864. I've been fascinated by that car since childhood when I saw it as a toy. It would be wonderful if Jim shared the restoration of it in a dedicated thread here. However, he could also bail on that if he grew tired of people flaming him all the time- especially if he isn't around to defend himself. Could you blame him?

 

Thanks for your post.
I happily stand corrected.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection from the prior Telacrest 0858 thread (which seems to have disappeared, or at least I can't find it) was that Jim considered the P4-ized 0858 to now be a replica. Not a Can Am with the wrong body, but an outright replica because he felt the P4 body and chassis changes forever destroyed the original Can Am car. His view was that Ferrari's conversion of it to a Can Am back in the day was a one-way trip and the car could only legitimately be identified as a Can Am. Since that car no longer existed, and it couldn't properly be restored back to Can Am form in his opinion, 0858 was now a replica. Based upon that view, and his overall respect for maintaining originality, I think their is zero chance that he would have converted it to a P4 himself had he acquired it while still in Can Am form.

 

Who cares what JG thinks about 0858 pre or post auction?! He's not the owner, why would his opinion matter more than the average fchat user?!

What Talacrest did with 0858 is the same as whats been done to 0844 and 0860 decades ago. The reason 0858 stayed in ugly CanAm trim for so long is because it was in storage for many years. Outside the JG fanbase I think most will agree that this car should be preserved and presented as P4.

 

To be clear, I'm not condoning his opinion, nor am I trying to promote that opinion or even bring it up as a matter of discussion (especially in a thread about a different car!), I'm just stating what his opinion was (to the best of my recollection) because I think that definitively answers the question of whether he would have converted it to a P4 himself.

 

Paul500, in the context of our posts. He asked and I answered.

NSS. Bad ideas have a way of perpetuating unless or until someone challenges them.

Then you would be wrong. This has nothing to do with JG, other than the fact that he happens to share the same opinion as people who care more about the object in question than their own personal wishes or desires.
The IAC/PFA, historians, preservationists (Hell, even Classiche for that matter)..., in short- anyone who is interested in what the car truly is- disagrees with you.

 

If you enter 0858 in the search function (top left) you will find several threads about this car.

 

Just so everybody knows my point of view. For reasons outside of Ferrari Chat, Mr. Glickenhaus and I do not like each other.

However, whatever this car is, it is a really cool car. Personally, I don't care what you call it. I will give Mr. Glickenhaus or Sal or whoever kudos. They did a fantastic job. I once had a conversation with the guy who made the metal panels, and it is a work of art.

Moreover, I retract my fanboy comments of many years ago. (I hope all that has disappeared, but I suspect not.) I don't believe this car is 0846 because I don't believe David Piper would have made that kind of mistake. If somehow 0846 got from Switzerland to Mr. Piper's garage, he of all people would have known what he had.

 

+1

 

I have never met Jim Glickenhaus but I do admire him for the cars he has brought back to life or has had created. Well done him.

I do however agree with the below.

Francis

 

Right now I am six months into updating my collection of 1143 individual s/n files starting with 01C and going up thru mostly the competition cars to the P4 machines of the mid 1960s and including comments and print by many of the great contributors to Ferrari Chat and others since 2005 plus other supporting print, images and research.The collection also includes over 900 books,magazine issues, including complete issues of Cavallino and Forza, etc.blueprints,individual magazine articles and several hundred images and more.To date I am less than a quarter of the way thru this project.Fortunately the s/n files were all recorded on paper as a certain amount of the content has now been removed from the internet.I am less than a quarter of the way thru this project which is consuming considerable hours just about every day.Regarding the five Ferrari driving Italy adventures I would suggest that anyone wanting to know more ask a few specific questions which I will try to answer. As I look back on those trips I should have kept a diary.However there was so much going on each day I don't know where I would have had the time A large amount of credit for these adventures,the sailboat we raced, cruised ,and lived on for fifteen years, sailing flotillas in the Med , the Ferrari in Italy and other adventures goes to Laura my wife who I miss every minute of every day.I couldn't have done any of this without her.And most of this was her idea in the first place. And in closing the name of our boat was Tonga.The car also had a name "The Ferrari"Enjoy tonga's crew

 

Readplays,
There is a thread on #0854's restoration here.
Pete

 

Sorry to hear of your wife Tonga, I'm glad you created those memories man. I have to say, you are an interesting guy. Lived on a sailboat for 15 years! Nice. Seems like you two had quite the adventure.

If you don't mind me asking, what model Ferrari where you spinning round Italy? Any pictures?

Cheers bud.