The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Investigations develop. He has not had his say on the latest developments and I would remind you that no evidence is irrefutable, mostly when the other party has not had a chance to counter. Any of Miura's dicsoveries, which I give him a thumbs up for, are not irrefutable through the lens of time and a welding torch. He has brought up some good points but I will wait to learn more before my curiosity is convinced, your choice if you do not care to. Also, until some of the unanswered questions, such as the Marcel chassis sighting is answered, I don't think the book is shut.

But to each their own.

 

Pete, I have followed that thread with great interest.
What I think would be great would be to also be able to follow in the restoration progress of 0864 aka the Pininfarina Modulo, who in her underpinnings shares so much with the other 08XX sports prototypes.

Cheers,
Dave

 

Oh my apologies, I thought you made a typo. Didn't realise that the Modulo was 0864.
Pete

 

No problem. She's a thing of beauty, as out-of-this-world spaceships go.
612 CanAm s/n 0864

 

Good way of putting it Vincent

 

So let me start off by saying I can totally appreciate the "to each their own" comment.

Absolutely.

You are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine sort of a thing.

As far as the other party not having the chance to respond... he has had MONTHS and MONTHS to respond. Plenty of time. I actually called for people to give Jim time to respond.... In my opinion... there has been plenty. I personally find it a "stupid" move (I need a different word but can't come up with it) that he put the bait out there that Ferrari was going to approve the car or whatever the line was and to stay tuned... and its been months... again this is my personal opinion. I just think its kind of bull **** to "float" things like that.

Marcels chassis sighting is probably one of the least important things in my book. It doesn't point to anything. IIRC he did not see the stamp on the chassis. Just a coversheet. It could have been anything. The chassis could have been anything else. Why wouldn't the stamp be on Jims car today?

Why would piper sell it as a replica and represent it as such at an auction and to Jim?

Lets call this last bit a rhetorical question... this has been discussed for years. I think that is a bigger question and more important question than Marcel seing paperwork for a chassis 35 years ago

 

Yup, Napolis has had his say for years. He directly and his fan club indirectly have denigrated, and more, those who dared to question his hypothesis.

The assertion that there would be some forthcoming sort of official Ferrari statement of acceptance is crap.

 

I have to say, it is very amusing to see how bad you want this to not be 0846. And lets be honest here, people on both sides have denigrated each other, including you.

I have to ask? What is this ax that you have to grind so badly? Seems extremely desperate to me.

Seriously man. Hand off the trigger, put the safety on, put that thing back in its holster.

Cheers.

 

I did not realize there was a time limit on this? Please, can you point me in the direction of where that time limit comes from?

Honestly, it's a bit laughable. First he's denigrated cause his initial .PDF is not thourough enough, and now you want him to do his research immediately. Laughable.

Here's a clue. I'm sure he'll respond when he wants to, and if he doesn't he wont. Are you going to bring him to a court of law for that?

These demands of I have to have it now are ridiculous. Are you buying the car tomorrow? Where is there a ticking clock for any of this?

And yeah, sure, there was a frame, not just some paper with a chassis number, that can almost surely be identified as a P4, back in the day, but let's just gloss over that and forget about it.

Very thorough. Why tie up any loose ends.

 

There is more knowledge on this subject than what appears here on Ferrari Chat in this thread. There are also far more actions that have been perpetrated behind the scenes too.

I too was a believer at one time. The pdf laid out what appeared to be a nice progressive logic. But as time went on and more came out the pdf is rife with problems.

The latest is to learn what is being attempted for this Ferrari acceptance. It is completely unworthy of anyone that claims to want truth.

Claiming to the open forum that "it is what it is" then knowing that behind the curtain they are doing something else is illuminating.

 

The Ferrari was a 328GTB. Sort of "everyman's possible Ferrari.It has just enough real Ferrari in it to remind you of it's lineage.Tricky to drive on those so tempting Italian country roads. I only had one real "moment" with the car coming over a rise at speed and facing an unmarked sharp right hander.Nothing else for it but go hard on the brakes and spin it out. The whole thing was done in just a few seconds but the car remained stable and responded in a perfectly controlled spin to a full stop.We were quickly under way again and Laura appeared quite unaffected. She told me later that because she had gotten used to feeling the back end just starting to come loose she figured it was going to be just the same thing again. We continued almost as if nothing had happened and had many hundreds of uneventful high speed klms. ahead of us. I actually don't have many pictures of the car as we acted much of the time pretty much as regular adventurous tourists and I don't have the equipment to post them. Want to know more just ask. As I have said before there is nothing to equal driving a Ferrari in Italy. Enjoy tonga'screw

 

Maybe. I for one am wiling to let whatever play out and make my judgement from there.

Who knows how much time it will take? I hear your point, but it's gonna take whatever time it takes and I'm sure if it ever comes to light the people on here are going to pick it apart as far as validity etc. I think all of us would demand actual evidence versus just the word of Ferrari. I don't think that even the people that believe it could be 0846 are going to jump on the bandwagon just because Ferrari says it is. I for one would need to know why it is, if they were to claim it is the real deal.

Sure, I'd love it if the chassis survived, but after what has been deduced so far I think all of us will be a bit skeptical without some very concrete proof that it is the real deal. I'd rather have it be a repro than be fooled and think it's the real deal.

And as far as the behind the scenes action goes, I hear ya, I don't think there were many of us that thought Miura was putting his case together all on his own. But I do laugh at the thought of him in Modena, digging through boxes in old Villa's basements to find that one picture that would crack the case.

 

Stop and listen on the "Ferrari acceptance". It is a crap claim. What is being attempted is via an unscrupulous path. Multiple people have told me of "the path" being used. NO CREDIBILITY!

 

I'm just using that as an example. Whatever it is, I'm sure the claim will be scrutinized. Till then it is just alleged assumptions and accusations IMO. Unless you want to elaborate further on what you know, but my guess is that for now, you don't care to do that.

 

Although, I am somewhat new to the board, I have , for many years, followed the very interesting threads on both 0846(?) and 0384.

I am not a current Ferrari owner - my formative years were spent motorcycling and much of my subsequent hobbies were that way inclined. Advancing middle age (the horror), brought me to Maserati, (currently a quattroporte), and has led to my becoming more interested in Ferrari engines.

My Ferrari heart is given to my fathers 330, (grigio I think, and gone forever, as I can't ask him), and 246GT.

With that I am going to give my opinion on a subject which has captivated me for ages, but is one I can claim no expertise in : Jims 0846.

I find the P cars overstyled, like a kim k. compared to a slimmer Virna Lisi, but they are lovely nonetheless.
The clincher for me that 0846 is not the 'real' thing are the unusual mounting arrangements which involve compromising the structural strength of of the car in ways that I cannot imagine a serious engineering concern like Ferrari advocating.
I have worked for three of the big Japanese factory racing motorcycle teams, from the late era, (when we used steel perimeter frames, until the massively stiff beams of the 90's), and still consult a little.
The arrangement shown on the current '0846' for both mid engine mounts and the bulkhead mounts, (the proposed 'adjustable' mounts, to be clear), would compromise the stiffness of the chassis. Not only this, but, unless the additions were welded to a bare chassis and the unit heat treated as a whole, the metals, (and I doubt the exact formulation of flux and rod could be achieved), would be in a state of juxta-positional equilibrium, with subsequent risk of failure.
Note: I don't include the 'plates' which were fabricated to adjust the front bulkhead - it should be apparent that changing the load paths is unwise.

As for David Piper -I have met him on various occasions, my Dad was a gearbox engineer for both Mercedes and Citroen and raced examples of both in the sixties and seventies, (to my eternal shame, Dad was involved heavily in 2cv racing all over europe - I spent much of my youth watching underpowered flimsy bodyshells race around awful ad hoc circuits), but, he did work for other outfits, including F1 teams.

 

It is always good to have some fresh eyes enter the debate rather than the same old, same old rehashed tripe that has surfaced yet again in the last couple of days.

Furthermore if 0858 was sitting in Jims garage today as a Can Am rather than being put back to P4 spec if he had managed to buy it at that auction in 2011 then I would eat my hat as I am pretty sure the temptation to have a genuine P4 would have simply been to great, especially with all the genuine parts to hand.

At a guess the Piper would have been used as a parts donor and the Can Am body and other parts transferred into that chassis to make a great usable track car.

All hypothetical of course unless someone unearths a time machine next

 

The problem with your "logic" is that it would not be a "genuine" P4, as Ferrari and many others (including Jim) have stated many times. But, by all means, hypothesize and spread as much tripe as you want...

 

Anybody have any oil as I am sure I can hear a squeaky wheel somewhere!

 

WOW... RELAX... RELAX!!!!

GEEEZ

I am fukin nobody... I am not important. I am nothing. Lets get all that out of the way since you seemed to have undeservingly given me a crown of self importance.

Time limit... OF COURSE NOT. Did anyone say its been 90 days. He is X amount of days past due? Get real buddy and get off your horse. The extreme tone of your argument is completely uncalled for. This is a discussion.

Regarding time... of course there isn't a time limit. There is no case. There is no contract etc... He is in the court of public opinion in which HE PLACED HIMSELF IN! I hate to use that terminology but its accurate.

Jim is the one that said documents coming soon... no one else. Not a single person called him out that he had to prove it by a particular day. There were some that wanted to see it quickly... and I even defended Jim and said give him sometime.

You can't argue that this was started in the beginning of the summer and we are now half way through october. He is completely silent. He even stated he has the information he just isn't publishing it. So... yes... he opened HIMSELF up to this scrutiny.

Its all HIS doing. I think you forget that.

As far as the frame... lets get onto it really quick and hard.

FACT... The frame appeared to be a P4 frame.
FACT... The chassis number was NOT authenticated

You can't use this as solid physical evidence.

Just as much as I can't prove that it wasn't 0846 you can't prove that it was. The moment in history has gone we can't go back and verify it. PERIOD.

We can verify what we have today. We can verify old photos. We can verify old documents. And the stack of "replica" is much higher than "original"

Its not to say that it won't change. But... there is some damning evidence and Jim is no where to be found. Not publsihing what he "knew" months ago. and has only teased with a leak of info. Thats it.

if it were anyone other than Jim. Most of the Pro jim guys would be virtually hanging this person representing the car this way out to dry.

 

I think you have it the other way around...

The car was built and sold as a replica. The builder called it a replica. Legal contracts were constructed and both parties agreed to.

What Jim has alleged is heresay and accusations. He even went so far as to add the 0846 chassis number...

I can tell you one thing... If piper built a replica and sold it as 0846 and he had added the stamp, not only would he be in jail he would be bankrupted by a lawsuit.

Its funny how much the story would change if the shoe was on the other foot. That is a great bull**** detector and bias finders or litmus tests if you will.

 

What is this that was just posted to Facebook?

All that accompanied the pictures was "Happy to report"

 

This was printed in the comments section by Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus:

Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus - Full Gold ASI Certification as Original 1967 Ferrari P3/4 chassis N.846 after rigorous physical inspection and through investigation including all chassis welds, tubes, accident repair, modifications made over the years by Ferrari and others, oil cooler, engine displacement, holmolgation stamps on engine heads, FI, gearboxes (P3 and P4), steering rack, stamps on body (tail), etc., etc., etc., etc...

 

I am not trying to stir the pot, never was. I'm just assuming some of you are not on Facebook or other social media so I'm just offering up what I just saw.

 

Sure does not look like a Red Book.

Since it wasn't Classiche who were the people that performed the "rigorous physical inspection and thorough investigation"? What degree of internationally recognized expertise in Ferrari did they have or were they politically motivated?

Jeff