The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Fat chance!

 

Appears to be a private federation of Italian car clubs which Jim has simply registered his car to.

Does not seem to have any recognised International accreditation.

If you have a Fiat 500 and want to join the club they will give you a similar certificate.

 

As much as I despise the man, I almost feel sorry for him. Karma is a female dog, isn't it Jim?


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Should this now be moved to the replica thread? The car is by all evidence a reproduction. Until such time as proven otherwise it should not be in this section. And according to many, should be crushed,

 

The ASI is a wonderful Italian Automobil Club but has nothing to do with Ferrari or Classiche. The private Club provides as well a very popular authentication process with a total of over 44000 (!) certifications. Mostly Fiat 500s, but they also provided for Corrado Lo Presto’s ‘Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider Prototype Bertone’ such an authentication. In later court cases in Paris and Padua came out, that this certification was based on three different Italian ‘expert reports’ but all reports differed in fundamental facts from each other. Much more manipulation came to surface, both cases got lost, no claimed damage payed and the defendants could not be forbidden to call the car a ‘replica’. However, let's happily continue to be entertained from Italian miracles and other exotic news ...

 

So after rigorous physical inspection it was discovered that what they were looking at was 'N.846' and not '0846'

 

That would give a great 'dose' of satisfaction to many....but thank God it will never going to happen.

 

May I kindly ask you why? No question of 'satisfaction'. Why should the car be handled different then Egon Hofer’s SWB (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/recreations-non-period-rebodies/498942-250-gt-swb-2701-egon-hofer.html)? May be the administrator should less speculate how it could ‘easily get the Ferrari Classiche’ then how the forum’s rules should be respected on the background of all the evidence, that Piper’s 0003 is no Ferrari.

 

Of course. To be honest i don't know the story behind Egon Hofer's SWB so i can't have a integrated view. On the other hand i can't understand why some people insist that the car is not #0846 from the moment that JG showed evidence and pictures that the car is #0846. Even Mauro Forghieri confirmed the above. IMHO i believe that JG did a great thing for the Ferrari community in general. His FB page is full of pictures.. If the car isn't #0846 why he shows all these pics and not hides them? He has brought up to life a 'lost' and great car that we all can admire and learn for it's history (i mean for the young people). Of course there are more experienced people in here that really know the truth but all this, it looks to me like no one wants this car to be called 'original'... Why so much 'antipathy'..

I don't think destruction or anything else is a solution..

 

So, you continue to believe that this car is in fact 0846? What part or parts do you assert are actual 0846 elements?

 

You probably need to skim the whole thread (nobody can read the whole thing at this point) to understand how the discussion got to this point. Sentiments regarding the car have come full circle. If anything, the bias was more for Jim's side than against for most of the thread. The more recent photos make it difficult to maintain the view that it is 0846. I think all of us believe it is a beautiful car and all of us are happy Jim has done an amazing job with it. I also think that all of us, even the detractors, would like for it to be 0846, but it's difficult to make that case with the recent photos. This thread has gone on and on, even when there were no actual updates regarding the car itself, so the relative silence since the ASI news is a little surprising.

 

Well, ASI is well known in Europe, and frankly, although its objectives are commendable, I don't believe anyone would put it even near the same level than "Classiche" (even if one might have reservations about "Classiche", but let's not discuss this). So I guess an ASI certification doesn't bring any argument; said in other words, it is anti-climax.

Rgds

 

the continuous push to certify this car and jump through any hoops other than the OBVIOUS one is hysterical... or saddening. Or both... or... hysterically saddening?

I guess Ill just shake my head.

Glad he is keeping artisans employed with jobs and work making bodies and panels etc... its awesome

 

It's bizarre and it indicates Ferrari, as the most obvious sponsor of authenticity, will not certify this car is '0846'. In the end it smacks of desperateness to use all of these random accreditations to bolster the JG PDF and story line.

 

Concerning Hofer, please read the mentioned tread. Destruction? The available evidence is, that Piper’s 0003 is no works Ferrari but a mix of beautiful Ferrari parts. A Ferrari identity #0846 does not exist anymore according to Ferrari’s written and unchanged statement. The rest are not facts but medial legend and manipulation what is hardly to be discussed here. And not experienced people have to speak but evidence. And this evidence is clear, unless new facts appear. There is a high sympathy from most for the very beautiful Piper 0003 as a modified replica of a P 3/4, but Ferrari’s 0846 is simply no more and why should't the tread be moved upon this background according to the forum's rules? Still denying?

 

Rob,

lgs correctly states the Ferrari SpA position.

Beyond that is has been shown (dare I say proven) that the engine cannot be 0846 nor is it even a P4 motore.

The transaxle is not real.

And all the evidence has shown (proven is way more like it) that the chassis is not 0846.

So, what real parts of any substance are there that are 0846? There is no "there" left other than some dream that it sure would be nice if this would be the real thing. Unfortunately the fact have out paced the dream.

Although this has been an interesting story it has run its course and this car rightly deserves to be moved to the proper sub forum.

 

Then I would refer you back to the photos posted by Muira SV (Steve) that detailed the differences in the tube geometry in the firewall and engine bay plus what he showed in the nose area with the brake cylinder. Follow this up with Forghieri's comments also posted by Steve.

 

Please don't beat me with a wet noodle... and ban me... but I disagree.

there are so many things that are wrong with the chassis that it just doesn't make any sense. Nothing in the front is 0846... Nothing in the rear is 0846. I have spent alot of time looking at the photos objectively and trying to make it so that it is 0846. you just can't construe it.

the photos are evidence. Now... the only thing in question is angles and how that changes distances or sizes of tubes etc... But we are not arguing dimensions we are arguing basically engineering as well as what is present or missing etc...


On a completely separate note... The thing that appalls me the most... is... his ridiculous claim of the car being titled as a ferrari and 0846... especially after HE ADDED the VIN to the CHASSIS!

To be honest... its borderline a crime. I am sure that there were some affidavits filled out to the state of new york regarding the car etc... It would be extremely interesting to get that paperwork. We have similar title and reg laws as new york and I know exactly how that can be done. The fact that he actually went and did it is a bit shocking to me.

 

I don't really want to get involved again but Rob I'm not sure I understand you here, are you sure you meant to write NOT?

The photos Steve posted had the chassis number of #0846 visible, in some at least, so the ones where the chassis number is visible prove beyond any doubt to me that the features on Jim's #003 are not correct, such as the way the engine is mounted.

The other photos were taken by the same professional one the same day and documented as the same car so are very close to "beyond any doubt".

Personally thanks to these photos the case is closed, Jim's car cannot contain the front and rear chassis section of #0846.
Pete

 

Of course Jim could easily change some chassis tubes to more closely represent what is in the photo's. Just saying.....

 

Since what he has isn't the real thing he could go ahead and have an accurate P4 chassis constructed. Wouldn't change the reality but it would correct the discrepancies.

 

I keep thinking of that Moby Dick book.