The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think it's who states God exists that needs to find the facts...

 

Too late as we have all seen the photos of #003.

And yes I encourage Jim to bin the "hacked" engine mounts and do it properly.
Pete

 

The car is not 0846. Time to move the thread until otherwise proven. It's a beautiful auto, and anybody here would drive and own it with pride. But she is a recreation that has unfortunately been protrayed as an original car which is impossible.

 

JF i'm not an expert to tell you exactly what parts are original or not, i'm just saying that if the car is not original why JG posted chassis and engines numbers on social media and in that thread, including the pdf file with history of the car? I'm not so 'old' as many of you with great experience but i'm saying that according to posts of JG.

Of course i'm less knowledgeable than many of you in that great section of vintage cars..

Yes, i will go back at least 20 pages to understand and see. I've made the previous answer just out of curiosity. Replica or not, i believe that it is a really beautiful car.

I've already did. Yes, you're right. I can understand now..

Thank you

 

once and for all, a P3/4 never existed! P3 or P4
And on the build sheet are nowhere the figures "330" but PROTOTIPO

So Prototipo P4 versione chiusa or aperta

correct me if Im wrong.

 

Rob,
maybe you could set a time limit, of a week, or month, and if no one comes forward to dispute Steve's evidence, the thread is moved.

 

This is a good idea!

Also, can you change the title to "the one and only" 003 is a replica?

Or the one and only Jim G. P3/4 replica thread and a wild journey

Or the outlandish adventures of an imposter (003)

Or the places we will go! A car constructed by David Piper

Or Pipers Taj Mahal

Or Pipers why you should be careful of who you sell cars to

 

‘God’ is Ferrari here, does exist and Ferrari’s statement is clear since years. Where is still some space left for any speculation or interpretation, especially after all the evidence presented? Piper built the car from a mix of Ferrari parts and such cars are disputed here in the replica tread. Wrong? Contested facts?

 

Been saying this for ages

 

depends...

how many delegate votes do you get for each subscription level...

sorry couldn't resist.

I would buy a lifetime membership for enough votes

 

Quite frankly I'm surprised the fact this discussion is taking place in the "vintage" and not the "Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies" section isn't being used in the JG pdf as further "substantiation" the car in question is '0846' and not a replica.

 

Hasn't this topic now been done to death, or is there an interest by some to take the thread to 10,000 posts at any cost?

 

Its most recent traceable, factual origins are clear, it was sold as/purchased as Piper 003, a replica of a P4.

Ferrari have stated, and to date have not changed any direct published view that Ferrari 0846 no longer exists.

As such the thread should sit in the correct sub forum and be debated there until such time as anyone proves without a shadow of a doubt otherwise.

 

I think this makes a ton of sense. Even with all the information in this thread, few of us really know enough to have a meaningful opinion, so a poll would be useless. Establishing a clear time window, like a couple of months, would provide a very fair opportunity to counter the claims against it before the thread is moved.

 

Having read much of this, clearly there was a concerted effort to create/manufacture legitimacy. Slowly building up a case strategically.

Interesting interview.

Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus ? Ferrari P3/4 0846

 

Is there a link to the PDF that is mentioned?

 

Yes. The link from your last post. Click where it says "click here for the whole story of..."

 

Thanks. I read the PDF. He really wanted to believe.
It does appear to be always trying to push things forward to build a case publically.

 

While I am not the final say in anything... I would say a couple of months is just too long.

Id give thirty days. Or give until the 1st of the year at the longest. He can personally pettion for a longer date if he wants provided he can substantiate reasoning... such as... "Ferrari is confirming my car January 15th and I am awaiting the letter" or something like that. That would be a perfectly reasonable request to comply with...

He has been completely silent and has had MONTHS to reply as is. All he did was offer a hollow "ferrari confirmed it, I have proof stay tuned" post (obviously I am putting that into my own words) Its been MONTHS.

Not a single response to Steves findings. Not even a hey steve, very good research. Let me show you why I still think my car is 0846. Or interesting findings, I don't think you have the full picture... see here are more photos of my car and this is why I feel you are wrong and that my car is 0846. NOTHING.

Again, its not my call... I hate "mob mentality" kind of issues.. but at somepoint... something should be done.


at the end of the day... I hope Jim surfaces and either puts up a tremendous case as to why his car is 0846 or he comes forward and says great research, Ill look into it. This isn't meant to be a public lynching of him. I do personally feel like he did try to falsely prop up the car as 0846... but I don't think he had that intention in the beginning. I think it was a neat idea and based on small evidence there was a chance and it was exciting to investigate etc... Then I think the whole thing got out of hand and now its so big and he has flown the car all over the place that he just can't dig himself out of the hole.

 

I am sure this is old news... but the wikipedia page seems pretty absolute. I know that wiki is user submitted based and everything should be taken with a grain of salt... but just thought it was interesting. I could have sworn years ago that they had a big write up about 0846 and Jim etc... that even referenced this thread and that it was likely the long lost written off car...

 

The 'war of words' extends there, too. Stuff gets changed around by interested parties on both sides.

 

If you drill down, you can find the IP addresses of those making the changes. It has been a while since I checked, but most of the pro-0846 postings came from a Manhattan IP address.

 

I went back and re-read the words Mauro Forghieri wrote in his Feb 23, 2016 "confirmation" and thought I'd post a couple of comments for discussion:

1) Forghieri states in the opening paragraph that his conclusions were "based on the documentation that's been made available to date..." It's unfortunate we weren't told exactly what that documentation was nor were copies provided as substantiation. If the documentation were independent and unbiased more weight could be given to the 2016 Forghieri statement. But if any of the documentation came from JG, it's biased and shouldn't be relied upon.

2) In section three Forghieri relates the chassis he examined had significant non-Ferrari modifications. I wonder if he was referring to some/all of the issues Steve raised. I'd also like to know if the 0846 chassis stamping, done by JG after he purchased the car, influenced his conclusion some part of the current chassis was from the original P3. A complete description of the modifications, and equally as important, what was "original", should have been provided.


Separately, it's curious Forghieri states in a later letter dated March 14, 2016 (found in the PDF page 2) that Jim's car is the original 0846 chassis he modified in Dec 1966. I say it's odd because it directly contradicts what he had publicly stated only a couple of years prior about this very same chassis:

"Dear Mr.Robertson

I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.

This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.

Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"

So my questions are:

1) Why would Forghieri have pointed out the lousy modifications for engine mounts on the DP003 chassis two years ago, then state in 2016 that this was the chassis he modified? I don't understand why a chassis already modified from P3 to P4 by the factory would have needed to be altered in this way later on.

2) Related to this , Forghieri discusses how incorrect the engine mounts on DP003 are in the email above, and yet JG describes the mounts as evidence of the factory P3/P4 conversion on pgs 72-74 of his project PDF (http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project.pdf).
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After reviewing Ing. Forghieri's clarifications along with much of the other new and information, the situation legally would be arbitrated in such a way that the baby would be split as there are a number of half-truths and absolutes that bring validity to both positions.

I find it legally acceptable to state what Jim is calling '0846' is indeed simply be a smattering of acceptable and usable Ferrari P3 and P4 components, some of which are likely from 0846 but from other cars as well, from the scrapyard Mr. Piper put together to make 003. Calling it by any one complete chassis name would likely be incorrect as the car has various salvaged areas from.

One could not argue definitively the car is 60% or 30% '0846' as there was no record showing what came from where, but suggesting a non-numerical figure, such as: 'we are reasonable certain some of 0846 is present', is not unreasonable. If this is suggested, then it must be included that the car also perhaps has some other salvaged chassis components based on the chassis Mr. Piper had on the occasion thus making a definitive number associated with the car incorrect.

This being a racing car, one must take into considering many racing cars in period were burned, rebuilt, yet remain a certain chassis number because history follows that car well. 0846 offers a multiple decades blank page making any definitive suggestion of its existence ambiguous by comparison, so it can be called a number of things. Take your pic:


'part of 0846'

'parts of various 08xx chassis' likely with some 0846 and other things Piper had laying around'

'original Ferrari P3/P4 fruit pie with some new welds and tubes to get it together'

'08xx' (my favorite)


Calling it a complete and total replica would be equally incorrect as calling it 0846. There is good case to be made for some original P3 or P4 components in there, but calling it totally by one designated chassis name such as 0846 would have to be followed by a disclaimer or simply called '08xx'.