Maserati Khamsin | Page 266 | FerrariChat

Maserati Khamsin

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Maeter, Feb 24, 2008.

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  1. WJGESQ

    WJGESQ Formula 3

    Dec 30, 2004
    1,477
    Wow that's a cool car. Not sure I have any idea what the compare to--bora?
     
  2. alfieri107

    alfieri107 Karting

    Dec 4, 2011
    191
    "RM Sotheby’s has applied for duplicate copy of Italian Libretto. Duplicate is expected to be received up to 8 weeks after the auction."

    The homeland of bureaucracy: It takes over 2 months to receive a duplicate of a car's documents... Mamma mia...
     
  3. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    597
    Yes it is! And yes I think you can compare it to the Bora to some extent, but the Bora is mid-engined and the Khamsin front-engined, and the Bora body design is by Ital Design (Giugiaro) and the Khamsin by Bertone (Marcello Gandini).
    Some similarities: Bora and Khamsin are from the same period, and both have the Maserati V8 (Bora 4.7 or 4.9, Khamsin always 4.9).

    This thread is about the Khamsin, for the Bora there are other threads.
     
  4. WJGESQ

    WJGESQ Formula 3

    Dec 30, 2004
    1,477
    The one on the right is very cool. Never heard of it either.
     
  5. rga

    rga Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2012
    342
    Switzerland
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    Roger the Dodger
    #6630 rga, Nov 22, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hello

    This is a fairly recent photograph (2015) of a scrapyard holding two khamsins next to each other; it belongs to a workshop in Japan, working on italian cars in Samukawa district near Tokyo / Yokohama (bologna-ss.com).

    The car on the left could be the same as on the second picture recently found on the web.

    Best regards
    Roger
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  6. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Suuuuch a sad sight....

    The main one is a very early car obviously...

    I need a drink...

    MS
     
  7. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    I lived 6 months in Modena 1o years ago and while I love Italy and most Italians I can confirm that err...you are better off having a gelato by the square fountain than being in line at any admin office...with the less lovable ones!
     
  8. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Hello all,

    As Tom said in one of the auction threads the Khamsin at Due mille ruote was clearly a car with a dodgy past, almost certainly stolen hence the chassis number tampering.

    If the restamping had been done properly and the car whose identity was stolen had been one that has vanished without a trace then the crime may have paid but, likely decades after the car was stolen, probably in Rome where it lived initially, it was given the identity of a well documented car, 096 in Vienna. This auction of course took place many years after the actual thieves were out of the picture I don't believe Mr Compiano, the man whose seized cars these were, enacted this restamping, not that it matters now.

    Once I informed RM some weeks ago that the auction car was NOT 096 we tried to work by elimination between the list of silver cars I had zero info on and the early silver cars and this one did not fit the bill but 032 was its engine, 032 as per factory archives at Maserati Classiche was gold (oro kelso) new and RM found traces of gold under the silver. They sent me the photos and I was able to verify this. With research the simplest answer is often the truth and in this case there was no need to go further, this is not a Dan Brown novel (even if the car used to live near the Vatican!).

    Then there was slight damage at the rear (almost nothing really) during transport to the auction location which scared off some bidders so these two factors mean that someone got a real bargain. Of course we don't know the actual condition of the car but those who saw it such as my publisher said it looked quite good and straight.

    Curious if the buyer will manifest himself here or email me.

    Well bought and one of the only bargains in a sea of overpaid cars amidst the excitement and apparently a lot of newbies getting in over their wallet...some painful monday accounting tomorrow for many but not for the new owner of AM120.032, good for him whoever he is:)

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  9. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Cape Town, South Afr
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    Jack Verschuur
    Marc,

    As you say, we know nothing about how the car really is, and the logical conclusion regarding the numbers leads to uncertainty. You buy a previously stolen vehicle from the State in Italy, with a now well documented re-stamp, that you want to put back to original. Without knowing if and when a crime was committed, you possibly buy a long-term parking space in a dusty police-impound, and that is a big risk to take at any price, unless you know the workings of the papermills in Italy rather intimately and have the right people to handle the pprocess for you.

    I'd be scared too, as obviously were many others.

    I hope the new owner gets this done and dusted without too much pain.

    Best,

    Jack.
     
  10. OFFtrack

    OFFtrack Karting

    Jan 4, 2013
    185
    Berlin
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    Dirk R.
    Can anyone actually confirm the price?
    According to my info of people who were in the room K #032 sold for 100K € plus comission & tax

    Not sure who spread the rumor it sold for 50K

    Still an ok price I believe even though the history is a bit strange

    best
    D
     
  11. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    3,338
    Hershey, PA
    The live auction results app. Hammer Price is still reporting lot 544 - 1975 Maserati khamsin #032 Sold $61,191.00
     
  12. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Hi Jack, your points are all good but I would look at it more optimistically as it was the state selling seized cars one would expect it to facilitate the title obtaining process and yes I wish the new owner a smooth path to it.

    Dirk and Joe the official prices will be posted sometime this week by RM Sothebys, I also heard around €100K, let's see what it is.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  13. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Let me ask a hypothetical question here. If someone shows up with perfectly valid title to said car, presumably the person from whom it was stolen, then what do the European countries do when confronted with that document. I know of a person who had his car with a dealer in Germany that went bankrupt and the local government then sold it WO his permission or compensation while he was residing in the USA.
     
  14. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Hi Bob,

    I would not claim to know the answer, I presume it would be a matter for the courts with each country doing it own thing somewhat differently.
    There are people such as Adolfo Orsi jr who is a judge's expert in some cases who would know the answer.

    Since artwork has been successfully repossessed decades later (such as painting stolen in WWII in the news today) I assume the same could apply to cars.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  15. bj69

    bj69 Karting

    Mar 4, 2009
    52
    A friend who was in the room noted 102k€ as highest bid.
    Bart
     
  16. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula 3

    Jul 15, 2012
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    ...and what was the final disposition of this person's situation? Was it final and the car gone, or did he receive compensation? Just curious.
    - Art
     
  17. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Last I heard SOL.
     
  18. vignalespider

    vignalespider Rookie

    Aug 12, 2008
    41
    CH
    The Situation under Civil law is generally as follows:
    The one who buys at auction (the more so if organised by the state) or in a public sale acquires good "title" (as you say in the Common law world). Should the legitimate owner show up and prove himself good "title", he can ask the purchaser at auction to hand out the good (here the Khamsin), but only against payment of the auction price w premium.
    Please note that under Civil law, "title" of a movable good usually passes with handing over to the acquirer; the original concept stems from Roman law and is called "traditio" and is still widely applied (works of art, movables, horses, etc.). However, some jurisdictions require that certain formalities be fulfilled (paperwork, conformity certificates, export aprovals, etc.).
    Best, P
     
  19. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Not terribly clear as it sounds like you're saying the true owner has to pay for the item all over again?
     
  20. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the explanation P.

    Officially sold for €112000.

    Bob: P. aka Vignalespyder really knows his field trust me and yes it would appear a legitimate [former] owner would have to pay, odd but that is how it is.

    1975 Maserati Khamsin | Duemila Ruote 2016 | RM Sotheby's

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  21. OFFtrack

    OFFtrack Karting

    Jan 4, 2013
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    Berlin
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    Dirk R.
    Thanks for the clarification. Is that incl. commission & tax?

    still a good price as it looks nice on the pictures.
    Anyone saw it live?
     
  22. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't think that's how it works for recovered stolen art? Otherwise the incentive to steal is really, huge with zero penalties or risks for the buyer of the stolen property? In which case why would any potential buyer even be concerned? Something is being missed here ...
     
  23. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    I'm not a lawyer, but I'd think 'good faith' would be an important criterion too.

    In the case of this Khamsin though I'd be worried about exporting and importing it with obviously wrong paperwork. I nearly fell into such a trap with a 512BB many moons ago, with a re-stamped chassis number. That car wound up in an impound and didn't get out for a long time.
    So, for the new owner in this case, it would be absolutely essential to get the right number stamped again and obtain proof that the car is indeed what it is, before attempting to do anything that involves cross-border or registration paperwork. Heck, the new owner might be Austrian for all we know!

    Best,

    Jack.
     
  24. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    -I was contacted by the lucky new owner of 032 who wishes to remain anonymous, he is a true enthusiast from one of the main European countries, could not believe he was the lucky bidder and intends to reawaken the car and keep it. I will gladly advise him, when asked, first in terms of the paperwork and proper contacts secondly for work on the car, reawakening it and hoping he chooses to bring it back to its original oro kelso color.

    -Bob: the legal field is not mine so I will let Vignalespyder answer.

    -Dirk: I believe the auction prices include all fees and taxes yes, someone correct me if not.
    I have a number of photos taken by Doug my publisher when he went to the preview (smartly he went only then avoiding the hordes of Wisigoths that descended on the auction:). Will post them later this week.
    It is quite an honest looking car which is an ironic way of describing a car with changed identity:).

    -Jack: no the new owner is not Austrian and yes he is going about the paperwork process the smart way, very prepared.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  25. maskham

    maskham Rookie

    Aug 30, 2009
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    Lucas
    #6650 maskham, Dec 2, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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