The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I too have picked up on this over the years. I just thought I was being sensitive as I am always a skeptic of everything. I never really looked into just figuring everyone would think I am crazy... also... its not a crime or anything.

Raising the awareness of 0846 is understandable. I get it. Its a free country. So he can totally go out and try to get people to elevate the public awareness of the car... luckily there is no direct literal point to that his car is that. There is no connection... so no harm no foul.

Also, I think its totally plausible that he has done it... he is a self proclaimed film maker and I am sure people have reached out to him as reference as a knowledgeable person in this period of race cars and in the film business.... who wouldn't reach out. Maybe he asks people to just throw a little blurb in or a little mention.

No biggie... but yes... Ive noticed it.

 

I doubt personally. But he has enough sycophants who keep him updated.

 

But none of this matters because he has to already know what the real truth is. He may not be able to stand that reality but it is really hard to avoid the mountain of proof.

 

I know Jim Glickenhaus better than probably 99% of the people here. Self doubt is not part of his makeup. This man is obsessed with being right.

 

Again, the irony is this is a really cool car. When you compare this car to Lawrence Stroll's car, it looks like the real deal. Mr. Stroll's car is beautiful, but I have a hard time believing his car was that pretty back in the day. If it were up to me, I would have no problem calling Glickenhaus's car a Ferrari. I would have no problem with it being on the lawn at Cavallino or Pebble. But it is not #0846. My basis for that statement is David Piper. Knowing what I now know, I don't believe David Piper would have made that kind of mistake.

 

There it is..............Piper knew exactly what he was selling.

 

Yep.

 

Jim has already stated in the past that when inspecting the car prior to purchase they spotted the ability for the chassis to run two different spec engines, and at that point Jim thought he had discovered a diamond in the rough, as only the original 0846 had run both types in period.

He believed Piper had overlooked this fact and that he was about to buy a real example from him for replica money.

The reality was Piper knew exactly why the chassis had this configuration as he was the one that had made the modifications in the first place.

I don't think Piper tried to mislead Jim about this matter, as Jim has stated in the past his view that Piper did not know his onions in relation to the technical details of these cars, which was something I struggled to believe as Piper had raced, rebuilt and replicated may examples over the years, and the last thing him and his team would have missed was a glaringly obvious fact that 003 had the ability to run different engine specs.

This along with the crude way in which the mods had been made had me doubting it was the work of Ferrari, which MF later confirmed was not the way Ferrari did such things in period.

It was at that point in the thread I started to make comments.

 

I think you'll find he'll be analysing every minute commer and full stop to the n'th degree.

The car is not 0846. It is a magnificent recreation. Nothing more nothing less.

Piper is not a retard.

This thread should be moved to the replica area.

As a side note I would like to see Jim come back and concede graciously that the game is up.

 

I agree that this would be his best move.

As with most big "scandals" (I wouldn't call this a scandal) its the cover up that kills you.... Not the crime.

 

You guys are dreaming.

 

Obviously its is impossible to know his mindset...

but I agree with alot of what you are saying and could totally see that happening based on a persons who could and has been politely described as "head strong" could act very similar to way you are suggesting in this post.

Besides... who hasn't wanted to go treasure hunting! We'd probably all go out and buy a goofy hat, a terrible vest and one of those one eye'd collapsible telescopes if we thought we found a treasure map. LOL. But... at some point... we would have to recognize that we actually in the gift shop of disneylands pirates of the carribean and have to move on. LOL

 

ohhh buddy... I wouldn't even bet your lunch money that he would EVER do that.

 

Well to theory 1... It could be a wink and a nod but I think too much controversy has come up that if this were the case there would be some flaming wreckage on one side or the other. I think there would be more to discredit piper etc... I just think that not only would there would be smoke there would be a raging fire somewhere. Also, I think Jim would be intelgent enough to know that may not be the case, otherwise why would he be selling it so inexpensively.

Lets just say he did wink wink nudge nudge and you know Jim if you can prove it is real you will not only make a lot of money but you will poses one of the most famous and desired ferrari sports cars ever (I think Jim is more motivated by the possession of importance and associated fame as opposed to money). If he did thorough research he would have uncovered that it wasn't true/accurate or at least highly questionable and NOT definitive.

To have the balls to add your own 0846 stamp... then title the car as such. Shame others for doubting as well as reportedly threaten law suits.... thats a few steps too far... thats not even a few steps that a few leaps.

Tons of promotion to get there car "out there" and tour and get it in a video game and mentioned on tv programs etc... I mean... come on...

Then we have the "just wait you will see" and we are all still waiting

Again, its not so much the crime as the cover up

Concerning theory number 2... I think that had some validity at one point... but I can't imagine there being any real enforceable repercussions. The company was sold on to Fiat and I doubt the company was sold on just all of its assets) the old man is dead. Piper is well enough removed. Enough time has gone by. It has been public long enough... if there was a chance that the car could be re-aquired by a party (ferrari most likely as perhaps the argument would be the chassis was stolen out of the scrap yard) they would have seized that moment long ago and they have stated over and over that the car was ceased to exist. So... I don't know what legalities could really be an issue. The car is being represented as the real car with a paper trail back to piper... So piper could actually get in more trouble for fraudulently selling a car, reassigning a vin and manufacture in order to evade someone elses rights to the car. I think if there was any trouble it would have happened by now. So not only would piper have (according to US laws) committed multiple felonies of fraud he would have cheap sold the car as well...

This above is without the mountain of physical evidence that MuiraSV has come up with.

(Im sorry Rob, this isn't directed at you... this is more of elaborating on your thoughts and opening up conversation. I feel you and I are on the same page of the 0846 debate and am not insinuating that you support the fable that Jims car is 0846)

 

Theory 3: Piper said it was one of his frames, Jim became convinced or wanted to be convinced that Piper was wrong, and maybe Jim had him sign a confidentiality agreement as part of the deal.

There are so so many variations that it is almost silly to speculate.

 

Indeed..........

 

Yup... other than 003 is 003. Not 0846 according to the evidence presented.

 

I expect we'll see DP003 at the Ferrari World Finals in Daytona this weekend, in view of this statement.
Surely they must celebrate the 50th anniversary of one of their most famous victories?
Nathan

 

They displayed #0856 instead according to the photo thread on this site.
PSk

 

cant agree, in fact its so far from the truth its unreal

the 3 major Le Mans racers of the 60's are as follows

250 TR = 2 wins
250/275P = 2 wins
GT40 mk 1 = 2 wins

as far as im aware JG owns none of those types at all

 

there may be a few replies now as ive been reading the more recent posts over the last few days and have refrained from posting till id read it all

except with the exception of a few there is no source, no proof they are what he says they are (ie proofof dates, locations and #chassis)
even the ones he does provide some small suggestions of provenance for theres no link or proof thats what they are.

if this was an academical submission there would be a comment sprawled across it "where is your bibliography, without sources this is all conjecture"

 

photos generally with no sources that could be any car

so actually helps the #0846 case rather than hinders it.
as for the engine, isnt the F1 unit the same fitment as P3 and the engine fitted uses the P4 mounts
plus its not an F1 unit, see further down.

except the photos used are from different angles and its not clear (and theres no proof the period one is actually 0846 except Steves say so)

this one and one other are the only points that i find in any way that play into Steves argument. however it doesnt take much thought to come up with a theory as to how it could have happened - when the chassis was stripped the workers would have known it was destined for the scrap heap, so who is to say they didnt save time and cut certain parts out ???

surely it would have been the decision of whoever built up the car to fit the brake system of their choice - as it was Piper then he would surely have used the system he knows ie P4.

further to this JG has stated the following
"he [Piper] also did some tire testing forGoodyear. He went to the wider wheels that were used on the
350 Can Am's and installed a brake bias valve which I'm retaining"

which suggest that Piper not only fitted brakes of his choice but further modified the cars braking system whilst in his possession

new tube ?
holes welded, flattened and painted ?
or we only have Steves word that the pic he showed was actually #0846

the square tube is the one point that is of any real concern to someone who feels its #0846 - but again who is to say it didnt get damaged in transit, in pipers hands, on the scrap heap, rusted and was replaced with something at hand.

this is still not settled
only recently Macca posted about this and no replies countered his points re the F1 engine mountings.
Jim also posted pictures to prove his engine was P4 and they have not to the best of my knowledge been properly disputed.

 

that was as is most of steves posts pure supposition on his part with no evidence whatsoever.
i'll give him his due he has tried to move away from his usual "baffling with bull****" style of posting and is attempting to be dilligent with is pictures posts etc.
but half of those are grainy and hes seeing what he wants to see, plus there is no reliable proof of course for his pics (so we dont know they really are what he claims)