The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think its a very different thing to put a car to its original spec a few years after it was built than doing it to #0858 which was a P4 for less than a yr and then 350 can am for 45 odd yrs.

#0860 was done back in the very early 70's by the most eminent Ferrari collector of all time and probably with the blessings of the old man who I believe sent him in Pipers direction for the necessary parts.

Oh and in typical Piper fashion he owned #0860's original body and kept it to go on a replica rather than sell it to the man who owned the actual car, instead selling Bardinon a NOS body albeit still made by Allegretti (who made all the originals)

 

ive already given a view on the photos to repute Steves position so wont comment further on that but the stuff re Steve and MF are a f****** joke.

he NEVER posts proof, just says I have emails from MF and quotes from them.
on the other hand JG has signed and notarized letters etc and a photo of him with the man.

one other thing, who the hell is Steve to be pestering an old Italian man aged over 80 who has never met, regarding a car Steve doesn't own, and that he has never seen in person all so he can continue in his vendetta against a man he continually refers to as a liar with a fake car.
Further to that I would add that Steve has driven away someone who was probably the most interesting person on FChat. Very few in the world have a collection like JG and of the ones that do a very tiny percentage are happy to post about it and chat on internet forums. JG was an asset and a genuinely nice guy, and Steve felt it was appropriate to chase him from here and a few other sites he posted in.
bravo Steve you must be so proud of yourself

 

I dont know about ferraripilot but I certainly have, and whilst Steve has changed style a bit its still mostly supposition and guesswork thats been interspersed with pictures with no provenance.

Even if all of Steves points were provable (and they arent) it could still be easily countered by rather obvious arguments.

if presented to either a court or academic institution Steves "evidence" would be laughed out of the door of both (in all fairness so would JG's dossier too these days)

there is of course other evidence that the NO camp have conveniently ignored and which needs pointing out in another post

to summarise though, I have no horse in this race and no axe to grind (unlike certain others)
Is the car #0846 or is it simply Pipers 003 ?
to be honest neither camp has me convinced atm - both have made good points, some of those have been countered (by both sides) some haven't.
For sure i'd love it to be #0846 as the story is superb but equally if it isnt then its a rather amazing toolroom copy (it certainly isnt a fake or replica)

for me at least the balance of probabilities is still out on this one.

 

This question has never been satisfactorily answered.

Marcel Massini was in Switzerland in 1977 with David Piper
he was shown by DP a part built up P3 or P4 chassis with a stamp saying 0846 and a carnet for the same number. (Marcel has posted the story on several occasions, a few minor details being omitted from some versions but the general facts remaing the same. one version does state that the car had a chassis stamp saying 0846 on the rhs)

Marcels own words
"... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or
less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work.
Wheels were attached to car! I was shown the chassis number 0846 on
the frame, right rear part.
Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying taxes.
But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to get a carnet.

Marcel Massini"

This clearly shows a link between DP and a car purporting to be 0846 and that he had the documentation to bring said car back to the UK without incurring taxes (and under EU laws keep it there too)
This was let us not forget actually a period where DP was collecting P car parts, not selling them.

Back when this occurred the cars werent worth "that much" but even so a replica would still be worth a lot less than the real deal - so the suggestion a few people have made that it could be just a replica given a real number for tax purposes is clearly untenable.

As an aside this has never been suitably explained as to how DP had this 0846 vehicle or where its gone now - unless you accept that the "replica" sold to JG is in fact the same car with the stamp removed to save making up explanations and excuses or DP still has it and its one of his other P4's.

Its been suggested that DP would never have sold 0846 as a replica if had it.
JG was at Goodwood in 2000 and was seen viewing 0900 and was told "write a cheque and its yours". JG then later visited and was given the chance to buy 0900 or any of DP's P4 cars (he had 3 or so), he inspected them and chose the one that DP referred to as 0003 (a strange number seeing as how by DP's own recollections he had permission to build 1 P4 and to number it 0900)
As o said it has again been suggested by a few on here that "DP is too savvy to sell the real deal as a replica" but we need to look at the facts again - JG was given the option to choose which of DP's P4 cars he wanted to buy, he ch ose one. Also DP could never sell #0846 as #0846 as it would open up all sorts of questions of "where & how was it bought" as well as "why did you not tell anyone"



Let us finally take a look at DP himself
great racing driver, owner of multiple proper racing ferraris and a man who was happy to bastardise them at any time.
DP was not perhaps the straightest shooter though.
he claims that in the early 1970s he was given permission by Enzo to commission one P4 chassis and have it built up to full specs, to help this he was given a copy of the P4 chassis blueprints and bought the factorys stock of P car parts. Its further claimed that he was ceded the number 0900 to put on this chassis also by the old man.
Rather strangely this number was used by the factory for a 312PB, but this could be an oversight by the race team, one hand not knowing what the other is doing etc. But who knows.
Anyways of this permission and giving of chassis number there is not a single piece of evidence rather than DP's statement on it.
It would seem however that contrary to what he says he had permission for - namely one car DP instead built 3 or 4 of them - at best this is taking the piss out of a man he claims was his friend, at worst its fraudulent.

We must also wonder how he came to own a car numbered 0846 in 1977, 10 years after said car was put on the scrap heap.
I see 2 possibilities (hypothetical of course)
i. DP bought the chassis of 0846 from Meade or some other Modena resident & he knew what it was.
ii. DP had a chassis built and have #0846 tags added to it along with some "fake accident damage" in the right places so that he could convince a potential buyer that he had the long lost#0846 for sale.
then of course as values and interest increased DP realised he could never race it or sell it as #0846 as it would raise too many questions and of course with the increasing values he could end up with a rather hefty tax bill too (or even a fine as the govt would be unlikely to base it on 1977 values and could consider he had deliberately evaded tax).
Easily resolved of course, remove the tag or just replace that one pipe and then race or sell as a toolroom copy etc.

The whole numbering thing is odd too
DP had a virtually complete P4 of some sort in 1977 according to MM
0900 didnt apparently appear until 1979 or so but the paperwork JG was given by DP states that that car '003' had been his since 1974
wouldn't the 1st car DP built have the number 0900 ?

 

Chaos, I agree.

I am not here saying that this is 0846, and Steve has brought up many good points to sway belief away from it being so, but these points have been made through a hazy one sided lens IMO. I also agree that the original .PDF/what has come since, does not convince that it is.

Sure some may say case is closed , but I have seen no verifiable proof that this car is indeed scratch built 0003. Maybe it is, and I am perfectly happy accepting that, but a bunch of grainy unverified blown up shots etc. don't clearly identify the narrative that can be spun from looking at it from only the point of view, that there is no way in hell it is 0846.

As far as the photo's, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt that they are mostly indeed shots of 0846 but sure... bibliography.

So lets say it is not 0846; then explain the Massini sighting and what came of that chassis? That is clearly something that needs clarification? No?

As far as what you said about the brake set up, this is a point I have had in my head since the pictures of the front came out. Who is to say that it was not modified to P4 spec at the time Piper had the frames constructed? Obviously Ferrari updated the braking system for a reason, If Piper was building the car to race, would he not put the most up to date systems in? And would he not build these using the same blue prints/jigs used to build the same area's on the other Piper built chassis? Thus acheiveing a copy of the other Piper chassis in that area?

Another thing that has bothered me Re: Forghieri. In one letter Forghieri states that he sees elements that clearly identify this as the Daytona winner, what are these elements he is speaking of? And then in a (I believe later?) letter Forghieri states that elements in the front are what clearly show it to be a replica. What are these elements? Why are there both elements that show it to be the Daytona winner, yet also elements that clearly show replica work? Could it be that there is some of both due to modification of 0846 after it made it's way into Pipers hands?

I have no problem seeing that this could be 0003, but even at the point that it is proven that it is without any doubt not 0846, then what happened to the car Massini clearly saw back in the day? Where is that car now? And what was it that he saw?

Cheers.

 

And some people believe in Santa Claus too. Certainly with the same level of theories it's not disproveable that he exists.

Enjoy the holiday season!

 

Ho ho ho.

Maybe that's so.

So tell me, can you answer what that frame Marcel saw was? Any idea what happened to it?

 

Hmmm someone has suddenly taken a hell of a lot of effort to comment in a very one sided manner in a form that is very critical of period photos and their original source but then heavily endorses a pdf full of simply "speaking on behalf of others" and ifs, buts and maybes?

 

New Fan Boy or shill?

If you are actually serious then you need to get serious connections outside of just the FerrariChat postings.

 

are you genuinely that thick or is it an act ?

i pointed out that without proof that the photos are of what Steve claims are worthless - most show no chassis number, race number or even a link to the photographer, they could be of any ferrari prototype from the mid 60's not necessarily #0846

also i didnt endorse the pdf, in fact I said the following re both Steves "evidence AND the pdf

"if presented to either a court or academic institution Steves "evidence" would be laughed out of the door of both (in all fairness so would JG's dossier too these days)"

so Paul I suggest you get your facts straight - if you have an issue then try to be both specific and actually make a point.

 

so you cant answer any of the points ive made then LOL

 

I see that some people need to be reminded, once again, of where the "burden of proof" lies ...

One side of the debate (if such a debate even still persists) has everything to prove, the other side needs to only show enough evidence to introduce legitimate doubt ... and the issue is then decided.

 

Your LOL is ludicrous.

If you are actually serious, I gave you a path to find the truth if you are willing to undertake the effort.

Come back when you have been enlightened.

Jeff

 

Nick, I also live in Cardiff, would you like to say that to me personally?

Steve does as well, but I have never met him, maybe we should all catch up for a beer and a face to face debate on the matter?

 

if i saw you then yes anything I say on here id happily say to someones face.
however im not a child who needs to give it the "say it to my face" sh*t nor will I react to anyone who makes veiled threats ( i tend to simply laugh as such people)

if you dont want to have your intelligence questioned then dont post in a manner that makes people ask said questions.

im sure from some of your postings that your an intelligent guy, but the bottom line here is I posted up several posts with clear points and one major smoking gun and instead of countering any of them it would appear that you didn't read what i posted properly, and instead you simply reacted to it.

so lets try less of the threats and more of the actual debate huh.


I ask again - if David Piper didnt have #0846 or a car he was trying to "make into" #0846 then can someone please explain the following incident that occurred in 1977

"... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or
less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work.
Wheels were attached to car! I was shown the chassis number 0846 on
the frame, right rear part.
Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying taxes.
But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to get a carnet.

Marcel Massini"

 

Ha... this is hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. I hope you aren't reading from a script because you may have a hard time keeping up.

I am sure steve will be able to provide dates locations and chassis numbers for photos fairly easily.

So why don't you start working on what you are going to say next to discredit the photo.... Or better yet... you might as well state it now...

We will wait.

 

So we complain about a lack of citations on photographs and we start to quote people who said they wished they had taken photographs... Ok makes sense.

Now I don't think Marcel has a dog in this fight and I would not try to discredit or say he was untruthful only because we all give him the benefit of the doubt substantiated by a long career of being a historian of these cars. But you see how your point could be argued that there is no sense in busting steves balls over the photographs when we all know what the photographs are of.

Also, if Marcel saw the frame or chassis in period.... where is that chassis number now?

If 003 is 0846 why would Jim have to add the stamp? Why won't Ferrari certify the car?

Im not even going to get into the rest of your post. Lets just start here.

Remember to provide Photographic evidence with dates times links and sources. It is December... perhaps you can write to santa and he will bring them

 

Funnily enough the mysterious Vincent Van Gool after taking exception to what Piloti had written then suddenly lived in the same town as him!

He popped up again straight after you posted and now you just happen to live in the same city as Steve, small world is it not.

Plus you both seem to keep harping on about the Marcel Massini sighting which has no links to Jims car that even Jim has ever mentioned.

I have made no threats, it was you that initiated a personal insult from the outset in what is just a debate about an old car at the end of the day.

So what part of Cardiff are you from, whats your favourite pub? mine is the Dock down the bay, what was it called before that? and before that again?

Whats the alternative name for our fair city?

 

I thought most of the historic detail photos Miura SV relied on were taken by Karl Ludvigsen? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he is a well-respected historian. If he says the photos are of 0846, I would take that to the bank, although the photos by themselves do not all make that plain.

 

ive been a member here since 2004 and have over 2000 posts.
that whole time my hometown has been listed as Cardiff, UK.

no links to Jims car ?
the guy who sold JG the car just happened to claim to own the missing car in question some yrs earlier and its got no link ?

and there you are suggesting your not stupid ?

Oh and for the record JG has also mentioned this fact too

saying "wanna say that to my face" is effectively a threat along the lines of "wanna come outsaide an say that"

not that its any of your business and I have no need to prove anything to you - but I used to live in Roath but now am in the Bay.
Pubs, never heard of your one apart from I have an idea it was TerraNova - the only places aside from restaurants I tend to go to in Mermaid Quay are the tiny Starbucks and Salt.
I used to drink in The Discovery when I was younger, as well as Billabong, The Claude & Rileys in Canton.
In town it was Zeus and Brannigans and Club Ifor Bach oh and my ex used to drag me to Metros (not nice on a rainy day as its underground and the walls seemed to get wet, not nice anytime tbh) but these days I only tend to go to Dempseys or The Gatekeeper (depending how busy and usually only after watching The Blues).
gave up my season ticket when The Blues moved to the football stadium in Leckwith and refused to go, but now they're back at the Arms Park ive started going again.
No idea on any "alternative name" except for the welsh Caerdydd.

Oh and this isnt the first occasion i've had debate with Steve Robinson
I've witnessed him on his tirades in the Lamborghini forum on here too.

Is that good enough for you Paul or do I have to continue to justify my claim of where I live ?

 

Well this post really shows the true motivation behind your recent posts.
Nathan

 

I think the travel carnet Marcel cites, was a tax dodge...0846 was a floating, void Factory VIN by then, so it got used.

IMO.....

 

No Nick, clearly you can buy me that pint then, however you obviously have an issue with Steve, I wonder if that started around 2007?

 

You should apply your own standards to Nipalos 'proof'
He starts off by saying that the damage from various crashes can be seen on his chassis. Yet, there isn't ONE photo that shows chassis damage to 0846 taken in period - not one.
So neither you nor anyone else knows what damage was done to 0846 in 1966/67. Yet, the whole 'this is 0846' PDF begins with the ridiculous idea that you can see the crash damage, and that is why this is 0846.
Where are the photos that show this crash damage to the chassis, taken in period? There aren't any! Not one!
Nathan

 

makes no sense though.
you have to pay the taxes somewhere - ok you can choose where its lowest be that the UK, Switzerland or somewhere else etc
but the tax will be based on value and therefore will always be higher on the real deal than a replica