The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The original crash damage theory was begun by master mechanic John Hajduk, who has worked on multiple Ferrari P cars. I quote

"One day John Hajduk Jr., MetalKraft Noblesville,Indiana., the person who was fitting the
NOS Alloy Allegretti coupe body to my car called me and said: " I was reading a book about P4s which talked about the 1967 TARGA Floria crash of 0846. You can see the result of that crash and the repair to the original chassis tubes ." "See them? See them where?" I
asked. "In your chassis. You can also see where it was modified at different times by different welders..." Another thing you could see was that the section that likely was
burned/destroyed in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a
different dimension and character by a different welder as well"

Doesn't make it true or false but Hajduk should have known what an original Ferrari frame looked like having worked on so many Ferraris from the period. A well done replica frame may have looked identical? Don't shoot the messenger............

 

It might be interesting to find out which book Mr. Hadjuk was referring to. We have seen in this thread that even contemporary reports were quite sketchy.
Is there a book which details the damage and subsequent repairs with enough clarity to enable a person to 'see' such details in the Glickenhaus car's chassis?.

 

I have a chalace at home... since no one knows what happened to the chalace the Jesus drank from... mine must be it!

Prove it otherwise!

Its on you guys to prove that mine isn't it. Its not my job to prove that it is it!

IM GOING TO BE A BRAZILIONAIRE!!!!! WOOOOHOOO!!!!!

 

What have you done?

Please tell me which case cracker or worthy research you yourself have done?

Like I said, your vitirol set the tone for this thread long before I showed up, I'm just playing along in the enviroment you helped to create.

So how about we discuss the car and the still unanswered questions, instead of wasting time talking about each other.

 

Vincent,

How about what have you done to find information beyond the FerrariChat posts? Have you actually talked/communicated with any of the world experts?

Jeff

 

reading your posts reminds me of the school playground
"i know something you dont know"

in an adult environment like this its supposed to work differently
if you know something share it
if you know something you cant share - then keep mouth closed and don't shout/boast about it
if you dont know things then ask and try to get the info

ultimately these kind of forums are about getting like minded people together and sharing information - not claiming to have some and then saying "Oh but its secret so i cant tell you" - cos doing that just makes you look like a prize c**t

 

Then go do something useful - get off your arse and go find the right people and get the information that is beyond the posts of FerrariChat. If you do, you just might find out some quite enlightening things. If you continue to look all for that here then admit that you are unwilling to put in the necessary effort and take the back bench seat. I would use a baseball euphemism of the last row in the bleacher section but that may not properly translate across the ocean.

 

Your attention to detail in research is amazing.

So there is no concern whatsoever in your mind that an extremely rare frame was spotted by a trusted source, going to the builder of the chassis in question as well as I believe two others, but that no one in the Ferrari world seems to know what happened to this frame? It just vanished? Poof?

Sure... no concern there.

Seems to me that half the Ferrari world wouldn't be digging under every rock to find a frame like that.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

 

Please, if there was any real behind the scenes information this party would be over.

My translation of your statement is this. Me and my Ferrari "expert" buddies have a bunch of theories and speculation, yet none of us has anything that is so revealing we can end the discussion.

If you did we would be done talking.

The bulk of the "behind the scenes" efforts so far have been hitting the send button to get some forgotten about pictures in the hands of MiuraSUV.

If you were so "connected" you would have a logical story for what the frame was that Massini saw.

 

Since that happened in your part of the world why don't you and Chaos collaborate to chase all that information down. Might be an alternative to waiting to be spoon fed answers you want to hear.

 

Great stuff.

In other words you have added zilch.

Keep trying.

 

Vincent,

You are unworthy of a response. I was so afraid that Chaos would get you spun up again.

 

Steve (who we are all supposed to bow down to) made up a story about this.
When i say made up, I mean totally fabricated and lied to everyone about.

He told us that he had spoken to John Hajduk and he was now denying all the repair story and said it was rubbish.
Steve of course in his usual manner referred to the conversation but posted no proof (bit like most of his MF stories)
Unfortunately for poor old Steve a friend of John Hadjuks later came on here and said that
Hadjuk feels Steve is a "nut", whose ideas he was trying to put in John's head, let alone trying to get to make statements contrary to actual beliefs. Hung up on "nut", ignored other calls & doesn't want to be bothered by "nut" or his ilk again.
And that to this day John Hadjuk still believes JG's car is #0846

 

Jeff, lets be honest here, when it comes to P3 and P4's there aren't that many experts.

Please tell me who other than maybe Forghieri, is an actual "expert" on hoe the P3 and P4 frames were actually constructed?

Waiting for a list of names?

My guess is Hadjuk will prob be near the top?

Honestly, how much do any of your idols actually know about P3/P4 frame construction? Can anyone of them identify the differences between a p3/P4 frame? Since you are sooooo connected, maybe you could be a fellow enthusiast and ask your "expert" friends what these differences are? Cause it is pretty clear that you have zero clue.

What piece of expert research have you ever added? Your just the kid that talks about your toys at home but no one gets to see them?

What expert have you talked to? And what groundbreaking revalation did it un earth?

That's right, you know so much, but wont talk about it. Shhh, shhhh.

Cause for you it's a competition, instead of an enthusiast forum where people you know, discuss cars.

 

Lets be honest Jeff, you have never had a response that actually served any purpose. I can't remember one piece of anything that has come from your research or a point you have made that has actually brought some insight to what this is, so to be frank I am not too concerned with your response that you wont give.

Even though... you did. Lol.

The only thing I really can remember is your bragging about your connected "expert" friends that laughingly have yet to be able to reveal really anything. Seriously, if these guys are such "experts" what are the construction differences of a P3 vs. P4 chassis? Let's get a list of all the subtleties, and while we're at it, what possible frames could Marcel have seen that day way back when?

Cause till they can answer these, your man behind the curtain "expert" friends seem like a whole bunch of bragging and even more hot air.

None of the reserach here that you claim your facts from has been done with any sort of objectivity or thoroughness IMO, if there was any proffesionialism involved IMO you would be able to answer these questionns before shouting your hopeful conclusion from the rooftops.

And "so afraid" Really? Where do you live? In a Norman Rockwell painting?

 

In all fairness Jeff either tell us the info or shut the f*** up about it.
Your sounding more and more like a sad schoolkid who no one wants to play with.
But then reading this forum shows your another one with a grudge against JG

the bottom line here is that constantly attempting to dangle information but then saying "oh but its secret" doesnt help the debate & doesnt prove anything - well it doesnt prove anything about 003/0846 although it does say plenty about YOU and none of it is good.
You do make me laugh though jeff, problem is im laughing at you, not with you.

I will repeat for you the purpose of these sort of internet forums - they are a place to get like minded individuals together for the purpose of sharing information and stories etc.

Now if you have info to share then by all means share it - privately or in public.
If you dont have info or wont/cant share it - then dont even talk about it, cos doing so doesnt make you look good, quite the opposite in fact.

oh yes and finally Baseball
a sport that is pretty much only played in one country yet still calls its major championship "the world series" - I dont think we need to go any further with euphemisms or analogies from that sport really do we.

 

Jeff. Lets be honest. Massini's siting is 30 years ago. It wouldn't matter what size the spoon is, none of you have any answers for this. In other words any answers you are feeding are pretty low on the knowledge scale. 30 years and not a clue of what that frame was????

Looks like I'm not the only one that needs to do some research? 30 years and no one knows?

Gotta wonder who these "experts" are?

Good thing they aren't doctors.

Not. Very. Thorough.....

 

I have done some detailed items on this but for that you would have to actually pay money to be on FerrariChat and then bother to find it.

But you must be one superb archeologist if you expect to find all the relevant information from a public forum.

Guess you missed the "back bencher that was intended for a Brit understanding and instead went for the denigration of baseball. Although, I do concede that world" is used by the US sports when it is a single country championship.

 

The reason people aren't talking publicly is they don't want to fool with a threat of lawsuit. Simply put, satisfying an Internet argument benefits none of the people who might or might not have information you and I don't have. All you have to do is go back on Ferrari Chat and read the history of the lawsuits against Cavallino and the Ferrari Market Letter to realize this is not a trivial issue.

 

Well then, we are in the perfect place. As no one has to be public when it comes to an internet forum.

If their is some sort of fact out there that is so revealing, it can easily be revealed here with no public knowledge of who it came from....

Is anyone suing Miura for publishing pictures and his theory? If there was any fact it can easily be told here in anonymity.

My guess is these facts are a bunch of hot air and "you gotta believe us" even though you give us zilch to believe.

On top of that, do you have any precedent whatsoever in all the years that this argument has been taking place where J.G. ever took legal action against someone in the 0003/0846 discussion?

So.....

 

it doesnt have to be public though does it
a private message with the proviso "hypothetical of course" or "this of course just hearsay and i dont subscribe to it all nudge nudge" covers all bases

whereas shouting "i know, i know, i know ........ but i cant tell you" just ruins your credibility

 

Jeff your not even saying what part of this convoluted puzzle your secret info pertains to, so just to satisfy my curiosity which of the following is it

i. Jims car itself
ii. something to do with what you feel is or was the "real 0846"
iii. the car that MM say that was shown in 1977
iv. something else

or a combo of the above ?

Can you see how dangling your info without saying anything is both unprofessional and frankly a bit childish ?

 

Doesn't Toronto still have an MLB team?

 

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Glickenhaus has never followed through with his threats to sue and that includes threatening me on several occassions.

You're an archaeologist, huh? I was an anthropology major before I switched to accounting. (Anthro had the hottest hippie chicks.) So I'm guessing you're pretty good at reaching conclusions based on missing evidence. What I'm saying is we will NEVER have the missing pieces of this story. It's kinda like the Black Panthers back in the day: Dem's talkin', don't know. Dem's dat know, ain't talkin'. Some here, for example, have demanded David Piper to speak up and clear the air. This is beyond hilarious. Why would David Piper say diddlysquat if all he would get for his troubles is headaches?

If you drill down in this thread (go ahead, I dare ya), you'll find I was a Jim Glickenhaus fan boy. No longer. I could share my thoughts on what makes Jim Glickenhaus tick, but I won't bore you. No, I don't believe his story because I can't see David Piper making that stupid of a mistake. Clearly, Ferrari doesn't believe his story either because Mr. Stroll's P4 was on display at Daytona, while Mr. Glickenhaus's car was no where to be seen.