Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

No his says, "same tyres," after Clarkson says, "same sort of tyres". We also clearly see Cup 2s on the 918 at 1:01.11, so that's irrefutable.

Just go to 1:01.11 in the video and look, it's crystal clear, the 918 was on Cup 2s.

 

There are screen shots where you can see the Michelins on the 918. I also heard Jezza saying "similar tyres".

 

When they were running consecutive laps, all laps were with 0.3-0.4s of each other in the P1 and crucially the acceleration on straights was identical across 3 back-to-back laps. We also have Jason Harts 2 laps at COTA to prove the 918's consistency. Look at treynor's graphs. When they came to doing the laps for real at Laguna, they gave a lap rest to cool down between each one.

It's not just the difference in lap time, it's the reason for it, and the graphs clearly shows the 918's straightline acceleration slowing. Look at the graph. We also know the post-production 918 gained 4mph on straights, figure that one out.

I'm still waiting for Patrick Long's back-to-back laps at COTA too, we all know he went there.

 

I know, it's not like they took them off and put Corsas on LOL.

 

I guess Richard Hammond and Jeremy Clarkson are liars. They said they were on the same tires (they were quite adamant about it), but Lieven/Mycroft, who wasn't even there, says they were not. I know who I believe.

First, Lieven says he doesn't trust the videos because of P1 drifting etc, now he says that he does, and because the video shows 918 on Michelins, it is irrefutable proof. So which is it? Is the video accurate or not? You cannot have it both ways.

 

Clarkson says at 1.07 "...all three cars were running on EXACTLY the same sort of tires", Richard Hammond says "yes, same tires, same track, same driver...it is all down to the cars"

What is so hard to understand about that? Other than it blows a gigantic hole in Lieven's central argument that the 918 has bespoke super tires and is therefore at an unfair advantage. I am sure they ran Corsas because apparently P1 is contractually obligated to run Pirellis, and these are all factory cars.

 

Obviously, I am not Lieven's lawyer - far from it; I have disagreed with said gentleman, but the facts are indisputable! If my English serve me correctly, the phrase "same sort of tyres" is not NOT the same as the "same tyres, foolstop"!!! The video evidence show the 918 on Michelins.

 

It looks a bit odd. Top speed on the straights is almost equal. Then the McLaren gets less g on braking into the corner and also less g inside the corner. That doesn't really make sense from a physics standpoint. Less braking after same speed means higher speed into the corner, then since the corner has a constant radius where does the g-force go?

Possible explanations are earlier (longer) braking and a smaller cut on the curve by the Porsche.

Are those g-forces only for either longitudinal or lateral forces (0 and 90 degrees), or are they for a combined vector of g-forces (any direction)?

 

Clarkson was quite adamant (before knowing his beloved P1 lost) that the tires were the same sort. Richard Hammond said "same tires". This means that they were the same brand and make, but obviously can't be the exact same since each car has different sized tires. That is what Clarkson meant by "sort". They went to great lengths to make sure they took the tire brand/make variable out of the equation. And now Lieven knows that it crushes his argument and so he goes back to saying that the 918 is on super sticky bespoke Michelins and therefore has an unfair advantage.

Yes, the video shows the 918 on Michelins, for most of the two days it would have been. That clip in the garage with the Michelins on doesn't prove anything about the lap - we don't know at what point the video clip was made. Even on the supposed hot lap, you can tell that they used clips from other laps to add suspense. For instance, they show the 918 active aero being engaged by a close up camera, and yet, from another clip there is no camera there! I doubt there were any exterior on board cameras on the hot laps for any of the cars. So that is an extremely weak bit of evidence that would be laughed out of any court room.

 

It's more a case of you misinterpreting their statement. They said 'same sort of tyres' and 'same sort of tyres' could mean, all Max Performance Summer Tyre, or all Streetable Track Tyres. It's entirely subjective.

Ask yourself how likely it is that Porsche would agree to their car being ran on off-the-shelf Corsas when all the other cars are using specially developed bespoke tyres.

 

What is so hard to understand about a big tyre saying 'MICHELIN' in huge letters attached to the front left corner of a 918?

 

Just no mate! Not the same tyres at all. The problem is that we credit these three jokesters more than they really deserve!!!

I also have it on good authority that each car was on its stock tyres.

 

Hammond was adamant that they were the same tires. Not much to misinterpret there. But I guess you know more than the people that were actually there.

 

Stop poking holes in Lievens theories

 

How are you reading the graph? All the dark coloured lines belong to the P1, all the lighter coloured lines belong to the 918. You can see the lighter coloured lines show a greater variance in peak speeds across the 3 laps, whereas the darker lines are almost on top of each other.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachments/288gto-f40-f50-enzo-laferrari-sponsored-bradan/2329380d1481372283-ferrari-laferrari-vs-mclaren-p1-vs-porsche-918-cats.jpg

Yes the P1 did get less g under braking and was slower in some corners as shown. Randy Pobst even mentioned that the P1's ABS felt very old school, i.e. came on too much. McLaren have since adjusted said system. And yes the P1 managed higher peaks despite having to brake earlier, simply because it's faster on straights. The having to brake earlier is probably what you are missing in your analysis.

On the Motor Trend graph, if it has a '>' or '<' symbol next to it, it is cornering g, if it has a brake disc & calliper symbol, it is braking g.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/exotic/1503_2015_mclaren_p1_vs_2015_porsche_918_spyder/87679647/2015-mclaren-p1-porsche-918-spyder-track-map.jpg

I should also point out that treynor, who provided the other graph was actually there - it was his P1. Unotaz was not.

 

Lieven,
Once again, ask McLaren to hire a proper marketing expert!&#55357;&#56834;
You... Find a new job!

 

Yeah, Soup over on GCF confirmed this. He was actually there too. Provided some of his own high-res photos too.

 

Typical, you can't master a decent argument, so you resort to petty insults.

 

He's not, he's made a sensible point. If they'd braked from the same point on track, the P1 would be going faster into corners. But the P1 had to brake earlier as the MT graph shows.

 

Frankly dude, those 3 guys are like a neo variant of the 3 stooges. They don't know their arse from their elbow and probably weren't even in the garage. I would rely on what makes sense and what the video shows in this case, but not all cases. It's unlikely Porsche would allow their car to compete on non-standard tyres, when the others are on standard tyres. And the video shows Michelins. It quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

 

Personally I can't believe this argument is still running. You quote all kinds of stats, which often have more complex implications than you are allowing for, such as battery technology - the e-motor power and capacity are only a small part of the story. The real key piece of technology, the one that is hard to master, and the one that has even huge comglomerates like M-B scouring the world for people who can do this better, is the battery management system. Very difficult to know whose is better by simple power and capacity statistics. My guess would be the company who made a priority of this from the outset, and the one who has the most resource. But that's still only a guess.

After all the back and forth, all the stats that only ever seem interesting in an utterly boring and inconclusive way, you will always be left with one thing; what is their motive for lying?

They are all three car enthusiasts, have made a programme that we are all watching, we (which means you) listen when their views support our prejudices and criticise them when they don't. They are all three proudly British.

And they found that on that particular day, with the same conditions and tyres, the P1, the only British car of the three, the one they have all eulogised about in various newspapers and TG magazine, was slower. Deal with it. Another day, another track, another story.

And by the way, if you haven't worked out that almost all of what you see on tv is edited, then there really is no hope for you. Stop keep talking about "tv shows Michelin tyres on the 918". So what? It proves nothing at all. You can only take them at their word that they used equal tyres for the comparative lap on each car. Believe them, or don't. You choose. But save the rest of us from having to listen to endless drivel about something you cannot prove without the three presenters or the programme producers coming to discuss it.

 

Judging from the comments about p1 I think there is some misconceptions;

The IPAS (kers) button is very rarely used on track. One has an option to leave the hybrid in auto mode and the hybrid kicks in when it needs to kick in. If you want to manually control the hybrid then you take it off auto and control it with the IPAS button.

I haven't seen anyone use the IPAS button in a track video. It is actually too difficult to do. Left thumb on DRS button, right thumb on IPAS button and paddle shifting isn't the easiest thing to do. It's just easier to leave the hybrid in auto mode.

Now, I'm not great track driver and I have tried it both ways. I only tracked at thermal once and I did it with the IPAS button. In the hypercar 5 video I hit the same speed on the long straight as James did in the P1 (while he had the hybrid in auto). Technically, he should have hit a higher speed then me because I wait for the car to be perfectly straight, floor it and then wait a few moments before pressing and holding the IPAS button. I found that this was the easiest way to prevent wheel spin coming out of a slow corner. After you have floored it and the wheels catch and stick and then send the jolt to the wheels through IPAS it works pretty well in not getting wheel spin but takes you a little longer to get on the power.

Trade off to the above is that if you have the hybrid on auto then you might have to wait longer to get off a slow corner before flooring it because you don't want the wheel spin. (motor trend video discussed this and I tracked P1 at Laguna seca and I had a similar experience). Interestingly enough the first time I went to Laguna Seca with P1 I used the IPAS button and I didn't get the wheel spin because I could wait longer to use it.

Regarding DRS. It makes a significant difference in how fast you can go on in a straight away. Some other P1 owners told me that you can't get to high enough speeds at Laguna Seca for it to really make a difference (Front straight away I believe motor trend got it to 156 mph); however, you need the aero as you are passing underneath the bridge so you have to release the DRS (you'll be about 135 mph at that point).

Video of myself and wing action using DRS at Laguna Seca (note: this was a few sessions in after I realized i was in way over my head so not necessarily going as fast as I could)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJJqfeNgmrM/?taken-by=bayareanady

 

One thing I will say about Lieven is that a lot of people including myself are a lot more educated of the different things one needs to look at.

Shows that want to be "entertainment" have to also cater to the diehards who want to see the underlying information. There really is no reason for people who are testing these cars and then publishing times to NOT release full video and telemetry.

Motor Trend did it, Chris Harris did it (Harris video was the best one in my mind as he ticked all the boxes to try to cover any questions people may have (I particularly enjoyed it that he covered the ferrari test driver coming out a couple of weeks ahead of time and setting his own time with the laferrari and then doing a telemetry analysis with Chris Harris.

Maybe the "car enthusiasts" as you say decided that if full information was issued that it may cause even more questions and not hold up to scrutiny. I'm sure they were fully aware of this when the show made a strategic decision of what to and what not to show.

With all these discussions I went back and watched the hyper 5 video. They didn't show the complete laps either with telemetry (they didn't show ANY telemetry for the laferrari).

I went and analyzed the speeds the cars had going down the long straight.
918: 150 mph

Huyara, veyron, p1 all 156 to 158 (go figure how the huyara can trap that fast or the 918 and p1 so slow).

As a comparison the lap of the P1 GTR (2:04 lap) it hit 168 or 169

(I was at laguna seca when p1 gtr's ran and you can see their speed as they are passing underneath the bridge past start/finish heading towards turn 1. The P1 GTR's were within a couple of miles per hour of the regular P1. (132 to 135 mph).

 

I don't read too much into these videos TBH but if you look at the telemetry from the 918's run it's very laggy then quickly jumps and falls back down. From that lap time I think it's safe to assume all cars reached roughly the same speed on the straight. Huayra is the one that is hard to believe. There has been enough drag races to show there's isn't much between a P1 and 918 to 150 mph or so. After that, P1 is clearly ahead.

Let me ask your opinion as an owner, P1 vs Veyron SS, 0-200 mph, good surface, standing start. Who takes it?

 

Educated guess; Veyron SS will take it.
One of my friends did a roll race (in mexico if you know what I mean) with a P1 and Veyron SS from a roll of 50 mph. P1 owner told me they were even until about 180 mph and then Veyron SS started pulling on him.

P1 from launch has too much wheel spin. My 991 turbo s had better launch from 0 to 60 mph.

Here's a video of when I did a roll race with the regular veyron from 50 mph. I knew that I could get wheel spin right away at that speed if I floored it...therefore, I had taken it off of the auto hybrid and used the IPAS/kers button. It worked pretty well.

Note: I found that about 50 yards to go or so to the half mile mark, I stopped pulling on the veyron and from that point forward he would have started to close the gap and pull away from me. (at what distance I don't know). The 50 mph and pylon was I'd say about the 150 meters or so and the finish line was at 800 meters.

Another note: regular veyron from launch was doing 169 to 172 mph in half mile (this would seem to be inconsistent with my statement of him starting to close the gap but it was mainly because it was taking him longer to find grip at lower speeds (he was having a lot of issue finding grip from lower speeds)). Top speed i reached was 179.7

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAvVkDHosMA/?taken-by=bayareanady