car design thread | Page 179 | FerrariChat

car design thread

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by jm2, Oct 19, 2012.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Prugna

    Prugna Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 13, 2014
    2,005
    Northern California
  2. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2007
    6,847
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    The split bumper was a master stroke of design. With the Camaro the split bumper also changed the parking light solution.

    All in the tradition of GM's great forward looking design ethos. Makes so much of what GM does these days such a disappointment.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,105
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    The current GM and Chrysler line up to me has all the modern and distinctive styling of a 1953 Plymouth with not dissimilar proportions. Too bad considering how good the cars are in some ways. And Ford seems to have drafted some stylists bent on destroying the company. I couldn't go out in the morning and face one of those things in the garage. I have always thought car design was cyclical, good periods and bad. To me we are in what I hope is the deepest depths of the bad for US cars. Europeans and the Japanese have similar but out of sync cycles but Japan seems to have been stuck on uber boring for some time now.
     
  4. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2007
    6,847
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    Brian,

    I tend to view aesthetic design as divorced from the quality of the car. Design does not have control over those other areas.

    The American designs, for the most part seem to lack a clear direction of where forward is. So they flounder around trying to find something to work with. Retro is a way of avoiding forward and the risks that comes with that.

    I remember Chuck Jordan talking of back in the day at GM Design how they did not worry about Ford and Chrysler since they had their own vision forward. He went on to say how Ford copied GM and Chrysler always "fuzting around". This was quite apparent as one understood the design leadership. Bill Mitchell was the emperor leading design where he wanted it to go. Ford had Gene Bordinat who was could be best described as an astute politician and well practiced ace butt kisser to Henry Ford II. Occasionally they did something really right but mostly it was just Fordize the just introduced GM. And over at Chrysler there was Engle. The loser to Bordinat at Ford who was (apparently) far more interested in emulating his mentor while at Ford (George Walker) than doing any of the leading work that Virgil Exner had done.

    As time went on GM's highest leadership worked hard to wring out Design's standing. Ford had a brief run of design leadership with Jack Telnack (ingloriously pushed ut for J. Mays). Chrysler had spectacular success with Tom Gale for a god while. But each has fallen into the abyss as the corporations are al scared of their own shadows.

    You mention the Japanese. Toyota is mostly "blandtastic " with some changes to "huh?". Nissan is seemingly incapable of grasping cohesive design. Mazda is marginally better at cohesive than Nissan.

    My overall take is that almost all the worldwide industry is wandering around trying to find "next". But next takes conviction which is in miniscule supply. Like you, I find it depressing.
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,105
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Well sticking to Detroit and the post war years all three have had spectacular designs and spectacular failures. At some point all three have had some talent and some originality. I do have to say though, as bad as I think Chrysler is at the moment they seem to be the only one that is willing to take some styling chances, not always great ones but at least they are willing to try. For several years it has looked like a bunch of non descript designs intended for a modern remake of Orwells 1984 or possibly a good socialist interpretation of a "peoples car" devoid of any style that would set you apart from the masses.

    Like I say about a particularly bad piece of architecture "kill him before he designs again".
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2007
    6,847
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    All the design studios have talented designers. The is usually not them but 1) senior corporate management as they are the ones that ultimately make the real decisions. 2) Can also be the design leadership in how they function within the management structure. Some are interested in the trappings of the title and had to sell their soul to achieve their position.

    Where this does affect the designers trying to do good work is they that grasp what the deciders are picking. They like fancy renderings in red then the proposals start becoming red. They like crap then the designers show crap. Everyone wants to advance up the ladder.

    Each time that Design has been successful it can be traced to a strong Design leader that was committed to push forward. That person also required support from the highest reaches of the corporation so that they could win the battles. Lack both and abject mediocrity is the result. And for that I would say that way too many of the companies suffer from that currently. Forget their PR words the actions (or lack thereof) are far more indicative of the situation.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,105
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I know and not a single corporate body at this point seems willing to deviate from bland and boring. It has gotten that as a life long car guy its not that I cannot tell one brand from the other, I can't tell you without reading the name badge what continent it was from. They are generic automobiles. At least with the trucks the Dodges and Chevy's don't make me shield my eyes and I was always a Ford truck guy. Leslie and I have resigned ourselves to understand we bought our last new cars some time ago. I have never seen such a complete and total barren landscape in the automotive world. Forget the money, I can't own something that looks like that.
     
  8. 330 4HL

    330 4HL Formula 3

    May 12, 2005
    1,637
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Rick Bradner
    Running until 26 February 2017 at the Italian National Automobile Museum in Turin, ‘Giugiaro and his journey’ .

    Museo dell'automobile

    Milan in winter; not my favourite place but perhaps worth a visit this time...
     
  9. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,203
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    I would love to see that exhibition.
    should be very cool.
     
  10. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    11,520
    Sugar Grove USA
    Full Name:
    Tom Tanner
    What a master!!! I have 5 cars designed by him and wish I had more :) The newest is my 2002 4200 Spyder GT manual, one of only 574 manuals.

    Don't feel bad John, it is right next to my Cadillac ATS daily driver.
     
  11. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,203
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    excellent!
     
  12. kevin956

    kevin956 Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2004
    497
    Pasadena, CA
    #4462 kevin956, Dec 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Did anybody see pics from the Art Center classic in October? Interesting show as usual. Full story in The Soutwest Star here: https://view.publitas.com/fitzhugh-media/southwest-star-magazine-2016-4th-quarter/page/16-17

    Happy to share other pics but one thing in particular of interest was their feature on the Fischer Body Craftsman Guild. If that means something to you, then it likely has a great deal of meaning for you. The exhibit had many of the submissions made over the years. Was fun to listen to adults showing friends the submissions they had made 50 years ago as teenagers. Thanks to everybody involved to put on the display.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    ModernLou likes this.
  13. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    #4463 Tcar, Dec 11, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
    Wonder why so many people put a 'c' in Fisher.

    I have a friend named Fisher and more people get it wrong than right...

    Weird.

    And another friend's father entered and won some level, but it was the early days (1930's, I think) and the contest was to build a model of the Fisher Coach (their trademark)... complete with gold trim. It was in a case in his father's study.
     
  14. kevin956

    kevin956 Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2004
    497
    Pasadena, CA
    Yikes - thanks for the correction. Didn't even realize that I did that. The common German spelling includes the "c" and that has become my default. I'm usually the one asking to add the "c" when people use the Fisher spelling.
     
  15. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,203
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    many a successful designer participated in the Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild
     
  16. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    11,520
    Sugar Grove USA
    Full Name:
    Tom Tanner
    Wow, I wonder how many 16 year olds could do that now by hand, and without the aid of a computer!!! Nice work by the "teenagers".
     
  17. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,203
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    That's something I ask myself as well.
    Pre Net era, everyone was on their own.
     
  18. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    No problem. People keep adding a 'c' to my friend's name...British spelling.


    I was just remembering a presentation that Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild did at our high school while I was there. In Albuquerque.

    They had an assembly for Boys only...that wouldn't happen now.

    It was v. impressive, had a model of the Fisher Coach and quite a few winning cars. Film of one of awards ceremonies (no videos then).
     
  19. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,203
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Interesting piece on the importance of the interior design:
    http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/an-inside-look-at-automotive-design-at-buick/


    HOW THE INSIDE OF YOUR CAR GOES FROM CLAY TO LEATHER AND STAINLESS STEEL
    By Jeff Zurschmeide — December 11, 2016 1:00 PM
    2


    an inside look at automotive design buick gm helenemsleyan inside look at automotive design buick avista conceptan inside look at automotive design buick avista concept
    Next Previous
    GM
    Slide into the driver’s seat of any car and consider what you see.

    There’s a dashboard, steering wheel, center stack, console. Maybe there’s something very stylish about it, or maybe it’s just plain and functional. As drivers and passengers, we mostly take interior designs for granted. We focus more on how a car looks from the outside, and we care far more about horsepower and torque than we care about where the touchscreen sits. That is, we don’t care unless there’s something drastically wrong with the interior, like something doesn’t fit, doesn’t work, or is hard to use. Then we care. If the interior designers did their work right, most everything they do slides right past our eyes. That’s why interior designers are the unsung heroes of the automaking world.

    HOW AN INTERIOR COMES TOGETHER

    To find out more about how a new car’s interior is designed, Digital Trends sat down with Helen Emsley, Executive Director of Design for GMC and Buick, and John Zelenak, Interior Design Manager for Buick. We asked them to talk us through the whole process, from a clean sheet of paper to a finished interior in a new car.

    “We’ll put a brief together on interiors,” Emsley relates, “and then we send it to all our studios around the world in America, Korea, Australia, Germany, and China. The brief says, ‘this is the customer, this is the size of the vehicle, this is the package.’ We’ll say, within two weeks we’d like to have a conference call in the VR room where we can look at your sketches.”

    “It’s called a sketch blitz,” Zelenak adds. “It’s an assignment for the world of GM designers. They bring all the sketches together and we’ll have an executive review and filter through them all.”

    A WORLD OF IDEAS

    In the space of two weeks, artists at GM’s design studios around the world submit their ideas for the new vehicle’s interior. The ideas are sketched over the engineering diagrams of the car’s skeleton.

    “They all have an art or design background, rather than an engineering background,” Emsley says. “One person’s opinion of a vehicle is very different from another.”

    It might seem strange to ask a Chinese designer to pen an interior for a car to be sold in Europe, but at this phase, Emsley and Zelenak are looking for cross-pollination, hoping to find the good idea that no one expected.




    “What happens is that certain countries that might not even sell that vehicle, and they might not design those vehicles, for them it’s really fascinating to work on something that they’ve never worked on,” Emsley explains. “It might not be the final design, but they can come up with an idea and we’ll take that part from a sketch and put it into a different sketch. Because they think outside the box and have different requirements in their country from what we do.”

    “Those are the freshest sketches,” Zelenak says, “and they’ll make the top 10.”

    FREEDOM IN THE GROOVE

    Automakers are extremely protective of their brand, for very good reasons. If a luxury brand brings out a car with an economy interior, they’re going to create more customer problems than the potential price savings can solve. But within the ironclad requirement to maintain the brand’s standards and keep the brand’s loyal customers in tight focus, executives like Emsley and Zelenak want to push the limits.

    “We have different buckets from conservative to wild, and in between.”
    “If it’s always in the Buick studio, certain designers are always sketching Buicks,” Emsley says. “You might love working on Buick, but every now and then it’s nice to work on something different. So when you send them around the globe to other countries, It’s a different way of looking at it.”

    Interestingly, it’s possible for a designer to be considered successful even if nothing they draw is selected for production.

    “You can get notoriety just by doing wild things,” Zelenak reveals, “and even if they’re not used, you see that guy’s name and you think maybe you’ll use him for the next Corvette.”

    “We’ll get some sketches that may look more like Cadillac, and we send them over,” Emsley confirms.

    FOCUS ON VARIETY

    The next phase involves narrowing the field from dozens of sketches to just a few. Emsley and Zelenak have a process for making those cuts while preserving the variety of ideas.

    “Some studios have the executive pick the five designs, but I don’t like to do it that way,” Emsley insists. “I’m very much into team. So what we do is use sticky dots, and every designer gets three dots. We’ll print out all the images and put them on a 20-foot board. The ones that get the most dots win. And the five images will be from this extreme to that extreme – you don’t want them all the same.”

    Zelenak points out, “We have different buckets from conservative to wild, and in between.”

    ASKING THE CUSTOMERS

    Once the field of ideas has been narrowed to five, it’s time to get a different point of view from Buick customers and from owners of competing brands.

    “We’ll ask them what they drive and what they like about it,” Emsley says, “and what they’d like to change about it. These people put their hard-earned money down for a car, so they think about it and they do research. We’ll ask people to show pictures of their homes, what they like, what they value, and what they use their cars for.”



    “You don’t want to be too conservative,” Zelenak says. “You really want to gauge them on what really pushes the button.”

    Emsley agrees, “That’s what we look for. Not that they like it now, but whether it would grow on them. Because we’ve got to guess up to four years ahead.”

    FROM DREAM TO REALITY

    At some point the automakers have to take their drawings and put them into physical form. They make models to understand how the car will actually work and also to get some kind of idea of how the car will be built, or if it even can be built. Out of the dozens of designs originally submitted, just a few will get the additional investment of a clay model.

    “We go from the sketches to the half-scale models,” Emsley explains. “Then we come back and we go from scale models to one or two full-size models. We’ve still got time in the design process, and we want to use that time before we make a final decision. Then we’ll bring the leadership of the company in and we’ll show them our recommendation.”

    This phase involves both the look of a design, and the leather, cloth, and metal components that will create additional sensory impression.

    “We’ll bring in materials and technologies such as instrumentation,” Zelenak says.

    AVOIDING THE FLOPS

    With such an involved and collaborative process, you might wonder (as we did) about some of the auto industry’s most famous flops, such as the ill-fated Pontiac Aztek. How does that happen?

    “I’d rather go forward with a design and push it to the limit, because that’s what I get paid to do. You’ve got to trust your judgment.”
    “You’ve got to take a risk,” Emsley declares. “I’d rather go forward with a design and push it to the limit, because that’s what I get paid to do. You’ve got to trust your judgment and your common sense as well.”

    In fact, it was prior flops that led to the current collaborative process.

    Emsley says, “I think we wouldn’t make such a big flop today, because if you think about your customer, and your whole portfolio, you shouldn’t have that big a flop. It might be a bit out there, but if you get it right, it should sync into place.”

    “I think we know how to read the clinics better now,” Zelenak insists. “During the Aztek days, you tried to make everybody happy and you had three front ends on a car. Or it didn’t even get clinics. Now we understand.”

    JOB SATISFACTION

    One of the benefits of being a designer is that eventually, you will see your work out in the world, being used and enjoyed. That dashboard, or that seat you designed will be part of someone’s pride and joy, and might even become a classic that future generations of designers will emulate.

    “There was a day I was driving home in Detroit,” Zelenak recalls, “and I looked out and there was a Camaro, and an old Aurora, and an Oldsmobile 98. I was part of all the interiors of these different brands, and they were all on the freeway. I was just so excited.”

    “What I like is the fact that we’re already working on the future cars,” Emsley says. “We know what’s coming and we’re part of that. It’s exciting when we finally see it and we say yes, we did it right.”


    Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/an-inside-look-at-automotive-design-at-buick/#ixzz4Sf4KpjpV
    Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | DigitalTrends on Facebook
     
  20. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    11,520
    Sugar Grove USA
    Full Name:
    Tom Tanner
    #4470 F1tommy, Dec 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    World Premiere of the Ferrari J50. Nothing really new, but I do like the side scoop better than that hideous 488 side scoop. The front looks like the 458 Sergio special that Pininfarina made a few years ago. If you have not heard the new turbo Ferrari's on the track you will really be surprised at how bad they sound without a tuned exhaust. The 458 motor is the last of the nice sounding V8's???
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. HotShoe

    HotShoe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2008
    8,801
    Lake Worth, FL
    Full Name:
    Anthony Lauro
    Lol, I've gotten hate on Facebook for saying this but I think it's a hot mess. It looks like they tried combining every design cue they could into this one. They are trying longer LaFerrari styling elements that don't work on the shorter platform of the 488. It is not a cohesive design.

    I've noticed this trend with younger designers too. there is a tendency now to cram everything they can think of into one car. More is not more IMHO.

    The thing that really hurts my eyes the most is the front facia body break element (from 512, 308's etc.) that just visually dies in the side intake. It draws me visually from the front to just dead end in the intake.
     
  22. furmano

    furmano Three Time F1 World Champ

    Jul 22, 2004
    32,215
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Furman
    Call me crazy but I think the J50 looks great. Yes, a lot going on.

    I suspect back in the day when the BB 512 and the 308 came out a lot of old Ferrari fans shook their heads at the new weird designs.

    -F
     
  23. furmano

    furmano Three Time F1 World Champ

    Jul 22, 2004
    32,215
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Furman
    #4473 furmano, Dec 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  24. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Yes! A peeve of mine, too.
     
  25. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,203
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    #4475 jm2, Dec 15, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

Share This Page