'Official' F12M Rumours and Launch

The answer to that question is the innovation with car electronic systems like ASR, F1 Trac, SSC, e-diff, etc in conjunction with innovations with tires. So it all feels very natural and "analogue" to the driver but in reality there are a lot of supporting systems. I think for a street car with insane power like these, this is the most intelligent way to go.

I find the motor in the F12b is more than enough to entertain me so I can only imagine another ~10%. Also who knows what else they will bring into the equation with regard to the driving tech as mentioned above.

The only thing I would caution people on is the whole last engine thing. I don't think the 458 Italia's value is enhanced by its being the last NA V8 production car. I think maybe the Speciale and certainly the Aperta are helped with this. BUT, we don't KNOW what will come after the F12M, we don't even truly KNOW (though we have a good idea) what the F12M will be. So I wouldn't get too worked up over the "last" of the NA unassisted V12s. Now if we are talking about the F12M VS (the special version like the TDF), then I think you could have that discussion, but again, you'd have to know what comes next. With Ferrari there are always interesting wrinkles.

I am really looking forward to seeing the finished product.

 

Indeed. But as humans, we tend to keep pushing, and why should we say enough is enough. You have to remember that the limits are already set by law, so no need really. The laws state how fast you can go and how quickly a car has to stop. The rest is sort of arbitrary really. If manufacture A designt car B, that can accelerate from 0-100 kph in C amount of seconds, it has to be able to stop within D time over E distance, and it will have to be drivable and meet emissions all at the same time. At some point there will be a physical limit.

So, as Carroll Shelby said. "If some is good and more is better, way too much is just enough"

 

Then this discussion will eventually turn into an ethical discussion versus a technical one.
Do we really want the avegrage Joe to have a car that has F1 type speed whilst driving on normal roads.
Yes, laws exist and maximum speed is in play. But we will reach our human limits faster then we'll reach technological limits. Our reaction time as human beings will not change. But when every car can do 0-60 in 1-2 seconds is when we'll have problems with certain individuals having access to such power.
We've only just begun tapping into electrical power. Imagine where we'll stand in 10-20 years.

Will we still have any fun when there is a Ferrari available that does 0-300 in say 5 seconds....?

All things taken into account; I guess I'll enjoy the F12 even more!

 

100% agree. I've been saying this since it was known the 488 would be a Turbo. I can't see the 458 becoming a collector, unless we look way past the lives of most here. If Ferrari finds a good way to do away with the turbos and replace them with a hybrid system, I have little doubt they won't. Sure they are on the stock market and all that, but they also know what a stong selling point is. And no matter how much marketing they do, they know it would baen been nice to have had the 488 sound like the N/A V8 cars do etc. If they can revert to that all while staying within emissions, a reasonable weight and price, I'm sure that's what could happen. So no, I think the idea of the 458 as a valuable collector car within a foreseeable future is a romantic pipe dream.

 

I think people don't realize how dramatically things would have changed in 10-20 years. The technology we are using now would have become obsolete. I can easily see autonomous driving becoming mandatory in 1st world countries. Closed racing circuits could be all we have left.

We are starting to go through one of the biggest transitions in automotive technologies since this industry began. Only time will tell where technology will take us.

Lets enjoy the moment and live in the now. Enjoy your F12's gentlemen. A wise man once told me "he who burns the most hydrocarbons wins"

 

I agree with you all and I would just say to Maximus1973, you raise good points but the reality is today your garden variety minivan probably has over 200hp- I just quickly looked at Chrysler's new Pacifica and they say is has 268hp. Thats more than my M3 from 20+ years ago! I guess thats progress. Now Tesla has cars that can do 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Since fun is subjective, I think the answer to "but are we having any fun" is going to be individual. For now I'm just glad we can still drive these cars and to Traveller's point- yes, the private tracks hold a lot of appeal.

To Tupps11, I'm not sure if we will see autonomous as mandatory everywhere but I think it could very well be mandatory in major metropolitan areas.

 

And people also don't realize that technology doesn't follow a steady course. It makes a giant leap from time to time.

Couldn't agree with your post more. We need to enjoy what we have now. The joy of driving our cars is that we can drive them now. Always looking for the next best thing ruins the experience.
The minute I started realizing cars are more then mere numbers and performance figures is when I really started enjoying them.
Like the quote that's being used all to often on this forum: "it's not about how fast you go, but how you go fast".

 

Could well be in theory but in practice many will evaporate post deposit stage.

 

Random doodle for a Friday afternoon. For context on 800hp for the M, the history of hp for the "flagship" production V12. The 599 marks the beginning of an upward break from the trend. I am sure I have missed some models, particularly in the 250 era, but gives you the general picture. We live in fortunate times.....
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Motorbikes have had WAY too much power for a lot longer than cars and while generally one only "damages" oneself no one has successfully argued for it to be capped

 

Red Sled: your chart is so cool! Thanks for posting this. It makes me note where my 2000 Corvette was with "only" 345 hp.

I have to admit that I could use a little more power than the 485 hp in my 550. But where is the limit?

 

Because of the high power, crotch rockets have really high first gears in them. If not, this first thing the tachometer would hit would be your face and not redline.

 

Great chart Red Sled! We really do live in a new golden age for performance cars.

Shack I don't know if anyone has tried to ban or limit the motorcycles but yes, you are right, they can be super super fast with much less power due to much less weight. I'm not really into them so I just don't know.

 

Today's bikes are on a whole new level. In the last 4 years, traction control technology has become incredible. Electronic suspensions are still in the infancy stage, but all major manufacturers have or will incorporate them into current models.

 

Indeed. And today I read and saw the video from Honda about the new gyroscope-based technology from Honda that keeps a bike upright at speed <3 mph. So no need for kickstand if the system is active.

 

Which parallels tech in cars IMO. I think the too much HP is a mute point as others have said with autonomous cars they may have "self imposed" restrictions built into them based on their location, conditions etc etc

 

Fascinating info guys.

So just imagine what new tricks Ferrari will present with the F12M! 4WS but maybe like in the GTC4 where the system can work in and out of phase?

 

Red, could you plot again using vehicle weight so we get hp/ton type of ratio trend?

 

This is a great idea!
I'm also interested!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

OT but worth 51sec of viewing
https://youtu.be/VH60-R8MOKo
Definitely a different experience from the more analogue bikes I'm accustomed to, but such is the nature of technological evolution

 

By popular demand (ok, at least two of you), power to weight (hp/tonne) for the "flagship" V12s. I've left the F12M weight the same as F12 unless anyone knows better. For consistency, I have tried to use the same source for European kerb weight as there are many different definitions.

Amazing just how far the Daytona was in this regard and it was a long time before power-to-weight caught up with those levels.

As for the M, further evidence of the current golden age.
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That chart shows just how far ahead the current F12B is really above any prior V12. Amazing. Can you add the tdf and GTO or is this just non-LE?

 

next year the F12 will be hybrid/ Kers.. listen to an italian Ferrarist

 

This is just production "flagship" V12. I'll do a modern LE (288-LaF), LE variants (GTO, TdF) comparison shortly.

Agree with you - the output from current V12 is quite staggering, and equally the mid-engined V12 period of the 80's now looks quite ordinary - as much as I love it.