Seems like an "internet" misunderstanding - the chap who posted re Moss quoted your post re Moss rather than start a new thread. He meant well, and probably misunderstood the context of your reply, and it went a bit downhill from there. Best, Sammy
Seems like stats dont matter according to this Autosport writer - Will F1's 2017 rule changes improve racing? - F1 - Autosport Plus "Given that Stirling Moss never won a world championship, nor Chris Amon a grand prix, I've never been terribly moved by raw statistics, and as time goes by 'all-time records' mean ever less, given that bulletproof reliability is a phenomenon only of recent times - and that there are at least twice as many point-scoring races as once there were. In his eight-year world championship career, Juan Manuel Fangio competed in 51 Grandes Epreuves, which these days is a matter of two and a half seasons."
Like in most jobs and even more so in most sports, yeah, stats do matter. Your level of production is gauged in facts and figures. So, Hamilton does indeed have the stats of someone not just good, but great at his craft.
+1 It has also to be said that Moss morally won a WDC, but lost it because of his own doing. The circumstances of that may be forgotten, so I will reiterate them. The last 1958 GP had to decide who would take the title between Stirling Moss and Mike Hawthorn. During the race, Hawthorn spun and left the road. His car stalled, so Hawthorn steered it again the direction of the race to bump-start it, and was disqualified, according to the rules. The title should have gone to Stirling, but he supported Hawthorn's appeal against the stewards decision. Moss said his rival had no choice but to drive the way he did, and he would have done the same to stay in the race The appeal was upheld and Hawthorn reinstated in the results. Stirling Moss lost the championship by ONE point to Hawthorn. I have never found a better example of sportsmanship in motor racing myself (maybe Peter Collins giving his car to Fangio), and I doubt that in the present era we will never see such generous gesture. Years later, when Moss was questioned about the reasons of his sacrifice, he just answered: "It was the correct thing to do". Moss gathered more sympathy and admiration from motor racing fans in that occasion than by just winning a title. So, it's not all about stats, as some insist, but about the impact one makes among his peers and the followers. Stirling Moss is truly among the greats, even without a WDC to his name.
Nice post William and thank you for the education and history. I like LH but Im not one to think about his achievements given his car is the only 1 that can win currently with regularity. When established and respected heads of engineering say its 80-90% car the stats do not matter. He has his WDC's but that matter more for salary and endorsements than his utter skill set being better than others by a large degree. Im sorry but its not world ending talent. There are others as Mansell said in the right car who can win a WDC. Its the car now.
Agreed, stats have their place but by no means, tell a complete or sometimes accurate story. History tends to romanticize events and people so I think it's natural that a lot of people hold the older legends in a higher regard than current drivers. Especially the fans who remember those old drivers as heroes from their youth. The newer (younger) fans immortalize the heroes of today and discount the achievements of the past as old fashioned or unimportant because they are no longer the latest thing. I tend to judge a drivers speed and skill by how dominating they are / were against others from their same era and machinery. Were they successful in only the fastest car, just dry conditions, or could they overcome in less machinery or from the back in the wet. Also, I think its telling to consider what other drivers of the era thought of them. In what regard did their peers at the time hold them? The driver behind the stats should carry some weight. Just how much weight seems to depend on if you like the person that driver is perceived to be. To me, the real GOAT's tick most all the box's it's not so much how many wins they have it's how they won and just as importantly, how they lost and what kind of character they possessed. You can get points for being fast but you can also lose points for character flaws. My GOAT’s all live in the past. To me, a lot of the current gladiators are too self-centered. The money involved today has probably helped shape it that way. Max shows the abilities of a future GOAT, time will tell how he uses those abilities and to what end. I hope Sir Stirling makes a full recovery.
off topic since we're writing about Lewis; I adore Sir Stirling but this comment is absurd on its face. Success is based on results. No championships and a very short career. Surely the best driver never to win a WDC but please.......... So I'll go off topic: Juan Manuel Fangio came to Europe in 1947 at age 36. He drove his first Formula 1 race for Alfa Romeo in 1950, almost 40 years old. The World Championship then consisted of six or seven races - excluding the Indy 500 which counted toward the WDC but which none of the F1 competitors raced in. That season he won three of the six European races as did his teammate Giuseppe Farina. But Fangio's Alfa failed in the other three, as did Farina's Alfa in two, but he placed fourth in the other race. Otherwise Fangio would have had six WDC's! In 1951 there were seven European races. Fangio won three, second twice = his first WDC. 1952 saw a change in the F1 formula to 2 liter engines. Fangio was badly injured in an accident before the season and did not drive. In 1953 the season was up to eight races *always excluding Indy) and Fangio driving an unreliable Maserati, won one, second three time and DNF'e four time, the WDC and WCC going to Ascari and Ferrari. In 1954 he and Stirling Moss drove for the all-powerful Mercedes-Benz team and Fangio won six of the eight European race and WDC. 1955, more of the same, six races, Fangio won four, second once, DNF'd once. 1956 Mercedes withdrew from F1 and Fangio drove for Ferrari for the first and only time in F1. Seven races and Fangio won only three of the seven races. But he finished second tgwice and there is the story of this season. His Ferrari teammate Peter Collins was in second place toward the close of the Italian GP, the last and deciding race and would have won the WDC if he finished second. Out of respect for his teammate, he pitted, handed his car to Fangio who actually finished second and by sharing the 2d place points as happened then, Fangio won WDC. Think about Lewis doing that today. In 1957 he went to Maserati winning four of the seven races and finishing second twice. He was 46 years old when almost all of the other drivers were in their twenties and two or three of them were dying in their F1 race cars every season. Here's the Fangio tally: 6 F1 seasons, started 51 races, 24 victories, 29 poles, 23 fastest laps, 5 World Championships. In six seasons. All when he was over forty years old. No race driver before or since is even close. Here's what Michael said about him: "Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You can't take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison." Do not misunderstand, Lewis Hamilton is an outstanding race driver, extremely talented and highly motivated. But I'd take at least a half-dozen other post WWII F1 drivers before I'd have Lewis as my driver: Moss, Clark, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and even Fernando Alonso. Here's another sign of how great Fangio was: one of his most telling little epigrams that I love was:"You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are." Imagine Lewis saying or even thinking that!
Great post! Just 2 corrections if I may. Fangio won 2 GPs on Maserati during the 1954 season, the rest with Mercedes. Also, Stirling Moss didn't drive for Mercedes in 1954. Fangio's team mates were Karl Kilng, Hans Hermann and Hermann Lang. Moss was driving a private Maserati that year. Moss only drove for the German team during one year, and won his first GP with them.
With regards to Lewis Hamilton if he would be considered the GOAT??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hamilton AND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records he still has room to go.....and realize some of the F1 driver records are debatable from an era perspective, number of races, etc. and that stats don't really tell a good driver...but there it is.
I 2nd that. Very well presented. History judges the Man and his accomplishments, the stats support the story.
Hamilton will equalize the great Fangio on WDCs this year. History in the making. People can bash Hamilton all they want. When we look back on this time ten, twenty years from now we'll be proud and thankful to have witnessed one of the greatest drivers of the sport perform at his zenith.
We’ll still think he was a ****, and that he lucked into the greatest car of all time so far, otherwise how do you explain Rosberg cleverclogs
You might but not the F1 world in general. Thre only reason why Rosberg won was the very odd mechanical dnf Hamilton suffered at Sepang with a brand new PU with a commanding lead. This has never happened before or since at Mercedes. Hamilton might eclipse schumacher's WDC record before he retires. It would be great if does it in red
Oh, please - Rosberg was made a clear #2 by his team during all the seasons they were competitive for the title. Toto is very expressive during a race and it was pretty clear he wanted to see Hamilton win. Rosberg had his share of Mercedes reliability issues too, he suffered a gearbox failure from the lead right in front of my seat at Silverstone 2014. He qualified on pole and had a substantial lead at the time. Hamilton went on to win the race. I don't hear Rosberg fans insinuating that such a mechanical failure was unprecedented or suspicious. Somehow, there's always a nefarious reason that Hamilton doesn't obliterate everyone on every outing - it's never just racing luck, is it? I know Hamilton floated the theory himself, but there's no reason for everyone else to jump on board. Nobody gets 100% reliability throughout their careers. Besides, after multiple engine changes in one weekend at Spa, and taking a back of grid penalty for one race, Hamilton had plenty of fresh engines to use for the rest of the year, while the loophole was immediately closed to other drivers. It was pretty clear that Hamilton was burning through engines because he was using them at higher output, higher stress settings than Rosberg throughout Rosberg's 2016 title year. Quite honestly, the way it was rigged for Hamilton, it was a miracle that Rosberg got his title. As Rick says, Hamilton is talented but wouldn't be as successful as he is without team support. Look at Monza, where Mercedes left Bottas out to limp around ahead of Räikkönen to ruin his tires for Hamilton's benefit. Mercedes have figured out who they want to be champion and it's very hard for any driver to beat a competitive driver in a competitive car with a well run team laser focused on his success. I bet Bottas will suddenly "come alive" near the end of the season after Hamilton clinches the WDC. All the best, Andrew.
Bottas was frankly not in the same zipcode as Hamilton at any point during the Monza weekend. That he could help Lewis and the team without hurting his own finish was really the least he could do. Yea didn't happen. To be clear I don't think for a minute Hamilton was ever sabotaged (and I don't think he ever seriously believed that either) but I do think Merc / Zetsche actively preferred a Rosberg WDC at various points 2014-16, lest brilliant Lewis get all the credit.
