Official Countach Value Thread

Roy:

Wow, thanks for the very kind words. I still wish you the best tomorrow.


David Anderson

 

David, I think you did right taking it to Scottsdale, its a good venue.

I also think you did right selecting RM, they have generated good results for S1s in the recent past, here are the last two from 2016 & 2014:

1978 Lamborghini Countach LP400 S Series I by Bertone | Monaco 2016 | RM Sotheby's

1979 Lamborghini Countach LP400S Series I | Monterey 2014 | RM Sotheby's

You have a well-known car in long-term (20 years) enthusiast ownership and you not only used it but took great care of it - you completely rebuilt the engine and performed later running maintenance. The total engine rebuild ought to have negated any effect mileage would have on value.

I can't help feeling that you deserved more, a lot more!

In fact I'm sorry to see you sell the car, especially under circumstances where I thought you would do better.

This guy thought so too: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145090168-post4830.html

So what happened?

There are still people with a lot of money and they are buying cars, as my Cars Sold link reminds me, so I know the sky is not falling. Perhaps selling our favorite cars by auction can have its pitfalls. Could it be the the auction house could have handled it better?

Were there any title or ID number issues that may have concerned potential bidders?

Could it be that the decision to have the car be offered at no reserve or the marketing of the car could have been handled better by the auction house?

I personally don't know the answer of any of these things, but, these are all issues that have been mentioned to me by potential buyers today so I thought it would be nice and respectful to give you the opportunity to weigh in with your firsthand experience (if you care to) rather than speculate, so we could all learn more about what affects auction results.

I said just a few days ago in another thread that "today's buyer is very educated", but that could easily also be translated to that they are 'very fussy' and have a tendency to pass if absolutely everything does not line up or seem perfect to them. So it can be difficult to elicit strong money unless the selling entity (in this case the auction house) is able to convince them that the car in question warrants a high bid.

Hope you come back on to review the sales experience.

 

Even though there are ways to justify the low bid, there is no question that this was the best deal to be had on an S1 in recent times and maybe for the rest of times.

Everyone of course has their own taste but when I received my RM auction guide for Thursday it was very hard to even look at another car, so stunning in LB form with gold bravos .

I do feel a bit for David as he was one of the first to really share his experience driving a low body car anywhere and everywhere. We all appreciate him for that and he showed all naysayers that driving an early car is enjoyable and even reliable !

David, good luck to you and thank you for what you did for the community .

 

Well said Joe.

From personal experience, I do feel that private treaty sales are the most successful for both the seller and buyer.

 

Sorry you feel that way. I was just describing the car and my thoughts as well as the many thoughts and questions being asked the pasty few days about the car in the auction house and area around the car.

I can tell you the fact that numerous people noted and questioned that there was NO VIN# stamped to the frame in the rear engine bay, correct or not, led to a LOT of concern.

I also know that several people in the room...when the car crossed and the announcement was made that it was dropped from RESERVE with a 700K expected offer to a NO RESERVE car...a lot MORE questions started to be asked.

The other question I overheard the house being asked, was why was the car not a TMU TRUE MILEAGE UNKNOW,?
I guess you had posted here in F chat when selling your car that your received it and the Speedo/ODO where in op, but you had no idea how long...I am sure that did not help it as well

I am sure all in all you still enjoyed a car for 22 years and I am sure pretty much received all your investment and then some back...good for you. I wish I could say that about every car I sold...some you win, some you loose.

I will NOT be selling mine at no reserve tonight....if it goes, great, if not I am sure it will not be a declining asset in the yeas to come. I will take it home and enjoy it some more, just as you had with yours.

 

I think whoever bought the David S1 made a great deal today and sorry for David it did not sell higher

i honestly feel the owner is a fortunate dude

 

Works for me.

 

I know you mean well as always Peter, but, those sentiments are entirely futile, markets are markets and they find their own levels irrespective of buyers or sellers emotions.

Should I be pissed that I passed on a $1 million McLaren F1 six years ago that is now an $8 million car? Or be mad that I can't buy a 250 GTO? Pretty pointless.

Enjoy what you can afford, and act whilst you have the opportunity, that's all.

 

WOW we agree here...yes the market is what the market is..

I to wish his car did way better....would help all cars in the market...but it is what it is...I may just bring mine home after 7;30PM tonight..we will see

I do find it quite ironic that everyone thinks it was a STEAL of a DEAL and it was worth a HELL of a lot more...

BUT not ONE of you made a bid to buy it for more...??

ALWAYS easy to say such and such was worth more..........TILL you have to write the check for it..........

ON the bright SIDE, I got you $20K more for your car. When the bid went to $370 and stopped, I bumped it to $380 and the $370 guy came back in at $390K..so an extra 20K for you.....your welcome

 

Joe and Roy and others:

Thanks for taking the time to offer your insights. I'll forward a few thoughts.

RM-Sotheby's was excellent to work with. They cannot be faulted for the discouraging sale price. Their photographic services, catalog preparation, coordination, and honesty were very well done. I worked most closely with Alexander Weaver and he was quite helpful and has become a friend.

The number of this car has always been 112.1094. This number is stamped on the engine block toward the front of the car, and between the heads. This number is also stamped on the tube frame in the front trunk, and on original aluminum plate at the left in the engine bay (shown in the photo file that RM has placed on the www). Both New York and Colorado have their own VIN system and I have provided a December 2016 letter from the Colorado DMV to clarify that the proper number is still 112.1094. I am surprised that this might have been an issue.

At the time I bought the car in 1995 it seemed common practice to disconnect the odometer. I had mine reconnected within 2-3 weeks after I took possession. The car is 37 years old and shows about 52,000 miles on it; I have driven about 40,000 miles in the car. If I had a choice between a recently built engine or a never been rebuilt engine, I would always choose the rebuilt one. After all, the car is 37 years old.

The color change to black was done by the original owner. I liked the black; if I were to have restored it I might have considered going back to Blu Acapulco? However, I did not want it restored as I wanted to drive it but maintain it at a high level. I also wanted to attend to a list of things that would return it to factory stock condition.

You both know the enjoyment one has when driving these early cars. I drove mine from northern CO to Monterrey CO in 1996 and to Billings MT in 2013 plus countless miles in the nearby Rocky Mountains. It crossed the continental divide one several occasions -- the highist road in North America. I bought the car to drive and keep in top shape.

Time might eventually give insights as to why the car brought such a dismal price. I am trying to get past it and remember I drove a Lamborghini LP400S, S1 Countach for 40,000+ miles over 23 years;for FREE and I got a decent profit over and above that! Remarkable; I am a lucky person. I hope I meet the new owner as I can offer some tips that might be helpful.

Thanks for your interest.

David

 

Agreed, I commented on FChat about this many times.

 

A lot of the interested parties, enthusiasts, and owners commenting here may not be in the market to buy this car, but they can & will make whatever comments they want on an open forum about the on-topic subject matter being discussed, so there really is no irony here.

That said, I think we are all in agreement to a person, one still wonders why it didn't bring more, especially after David's own input above.

 

In a response to my post stating "your car", I'm sure you meant "David's car" not mine, I had no affiliation with the car, or its sale, even though I would have been happy to - just a small clarification in case someone interprets that I was involved.

Thanks, and good luck tonight.

 

Thank you for sharing David.

 

not too good..
I certainly cannot afford making an offer on every car I would discus the value but if roy is roight then the price would have been $370K for an S1?
The story about rear stamp vin is rubbish. Really. I wonder if the new breed of 2014 "investors" who never drive their car and buy thru an edge fund are simply brain dead.
Some cars simply dont seem to have it.
Odometer disconnection is an entire different matter. Here comes these 1000 kms cars? if it is not well officially documented then the low mileage dont exists. then, as Joe says after an engine rebuild only some 2014 investors may ask for the proof of the oil change 10 years ago, right along the VIN at the rear when all other stamps are on along with proper documentation.
Anyway that value places the S1 at or slightly below a BB512 or 365BB.

 

Reading these posts is making my head spin ! As I have stated in the past, selling a car at an auction at no reserve is the dumbest thing you can do. If it's a $20k car that's one thing, how much can you lose, and I still wouldn't do it. So let me understand this, you take a personal asset worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and offer it for sale to the public, on a particular day, at a particular time, to a limited number of buyers, yes I am including the internet, and you say to them, I hope you pay a lot for my car but I'm willing to take whatever you give me ? REALLY,,,think about it for a minute, and now you're not happy with the price you got. I am not trying to beat up the seller of the car in question, I am making a statement about selling at no reserve in general. Selling a car at no reserve or removing the reserve during bidding so the vehicle will bring more money is a myth perpetuated by ALL the auction houses, and Mecum does a great job at it. They will show you on TV when they stop an auction and announce that "THE RESERVE IS LIFFTED" and the car continues to get more bids so sellers think that's why the bidding continued when in fact NO ONE knows if the bidding would have continued if the reserve had not be lifted. The auction houses obviously want to make sellers think that's the way to go. They don't get paid unless the cars sell, and the cars won't sell unless they meet the reserve or better yet, if there is NO RESERVE. How many times have we watched auctions on television or been at an auction when the reserve is lifted and the car doesn't do a penny more ? When you sell no reserve you also eliminate your opportunity to negotiate after the car runs, and we have all seen many deals get done after a no sale on the block. This seller was lucky that Roy was there to bang the guy another twenty grand. Hell, he's lucky Roy and the winning bidder where there, otherwise who knows, maybe the car only does $280k and if it did, it gets SOLD ! In my personal experience for selling at auctions for maybe 35 years, I've lost track, I have found the complete opposite to be true, especially at a high dollar venue like this. There are lots of people there with lots of money, there is lots of booze and there are lots of guys walking around with their chest puffed out and their 20 gallon hats on. I have found that when people get locked up over a car and auction fever takes over, the last thing you want as a seller is to let these bidders know that they may actually buy a car. I have seen hundreds of times when a seller announced "the cars getting sold" that the bidders stopped bidding and sometimes run away, they were having so much fun bidding that they forgot they would have to pay for it if they win !!! I am not saying that tactic has never worked, but I think it's very rare and the little bit of potential upside is not worth the tremendous risk of the down side. Would you auction your house at no reserve, it just makes no sense.

 

Patrick we must remain open-minded and try to refrain from stereotyping, even though the reason may be understandable.

A case in point that completely upends the notion that people who pay top dollar for excellent examples, never drive their cars, is the buyer of 1121098. The gentleman who paid more money than anyone else for an S1, drives it quite often!

In fact, immediately after the auction 1979 Lamborghini Countach LP400S Series I | Monterey 2014 | RM Sotheby's he road-registered the car on October the 1st 2014, underscoring the intent for which the car was purchased.

Remember, this "new breed" of investors is good for the classic Lamborghini marque, they only serve to elevate the values of all the cars.
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AutoSport makes the case against the NO RESERVE strategy for selling cars at auction. I agree with his assessment but sometimes their is more to the story than has been outlined. Let me lay out an option without saying exactly what my agreement with RM was yesterday.

I arrived at the Biltmore on Wednesday with a $575K reserve price and a suggested price estimate between $600-700K. I agreed to pay a 6% commission on the total amount if the reserve was exceeded and 0$ if it was not (pretty standard). I felt that if it did not get to $575K I would bring it back to Colorado and pay 0% commission. That was my plan.

Then I hit upon options such as 0% commission on the first, say, $500K and if it sells for anything above that there is a, say, 4% commission on the whole amount. In a sence you are "rewarded" for dropping the announced reserve by paying 0% on the first $500K and only paying (at the worst in my example) 4% instead of 6% if it sells for over $500K. Bidders do not know, or even care, about the details; they merely compete for ownership of a car during the auction (the $500K or the 4% or 6% commission are unknown to them).

I have no idea how many auction houses allow such strategies or what their decision might rest on (anticipated selling price?). If I ever sell another car at auction I will keep some "NO RESERVE" strategies on the table.

I have no idea how often such things are done but I do know that just the term "NO RESERVE" might often tell only part of the story.

You and Joe and Roy all have way more experience in these matters. I hope you do not take my suggestions very seriously as I am a total novice at this. However, I do not there might be more to this than meets the eye.

Thank you,

David

 

Was there no 17 char VIN on the car anywhere???

-mick

 

Sure there was, as David mentioned, also the QV's have the vin stamped into the rain drain in the luggage compartment, you can't see it from the engine bay.
David's S1 is known since 2 decades, he even was one of the first having a Website dedicated to his beautiful S1, I always admired his effort to keep his car running perfect.

But of course it had it's mileage, if 100% accurate or not doesn't matter at 50k miles, but on many other cars with very low mileage I doubt the figures.
I personally know that a known swiss dealer had the odo disconnected, gave the cars for sale to good customers and they went for a super car Weekend putting 500 miles and so on.
These they did yearly, later the car was for sale with 3000km, think what you want but I never intended to buy something there.