Cavallino Classic - Competition Class Concours

That's a different car. The one that won has never had any Challenge equipment installed and never raced. And by the way, the one to which you refer doesn't have all of its Challenge equipment installed- it's missing most of the cage.

 

Hmmm. I didn't see another 348 Challenge on the field. I took these pictures just this last Saturday at the Concours. Maybe I missed something. Brian, is the car pictured (s/n 97985) the one that won Platinum and the Best Competition car last weekend at Cavallino? I remember hearing the major award given at the awards banquet, but I don't remember the s/n.

And, yes, I agree; the complete roll cage is not installed on s/n 97985 as it sat on the Cavallino field last Saturday. You are correct.

 

I believe it was 98159. I didn't look when you first posted it.

 

And, just as I suspected on the field, 97985 is the ex-sherpa23/ex-malex car. I thought it looked familiar to me.

 

OK, then I did miss 98159 on the field. Sorry for the confusion. But 97985 was pretty spectacular as well.

 

I have repeatedly asked for info on my car 348 Challenge and #91 Serie Speciale on the boards and pm to quite a few with no reply's. I would love to have some feed back. Any help would be greatly appreciated Thanks

Ser #zffrg35a3p0095820

 

You guys are talking about several different cars. The one that won was 98159 which was red with black leather interior - a targa without challenge kit or race history.

The different one outfitted in the photos above 97985 also looks fantastic.

Robb
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

That car looked perfect. Where has it been? How many miles are on it? It looked to be under 2500 to me. Here is my old modified track/road warrior at FCA2008 Toronto. 1000 miles about 13 hours, 40 plus laps at Mosport, then home. There make great rally/track cars.

Why don't we get some of these together for www.fca2017.org at Daytona? This is coming up fast. Was just there for the Finali Mondiali
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Owner bought the car with 600 miles on the clock. It now has 20k.

Robb

 

Geez, Robb, I have not forgotten about you, been looking through records now. Pictures looked amazing.

 

All good. We were also cheering for your college football team. So we understand you had plenty going on...

Robb

 

I haven't seen any requests or PM's on your car until this post... but hopefully you can pop the bubbly now knowing your car's lost history.

95820 - tb ss

Raced in the 1994 Ferrari Challenge North America
Driven by Arnold Menn of Austin, Texas
Sponsored by the Ferrari of Houston Team
Ran under the Number # 6
Texas License Plate was "348 SS"

1993 NA Trials prior to 1994 season

Willow Springs
Race 1 - Finished 17th
Race 2 - Finished 17th

1994 Season - Finished 30th with 20 points

Moroso Motorsports Park
Race 1 - 24th
Race 2 - 25th

Texas World Speedway
Race 1 - 23rd
Race 2 - 23rd

Please fill in your profile so we know a little more. Hopefully all enjoy the historic photo.
Let's see what it looks like today - please post in the Sticky thread above.

Robb

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Robb, thanks for the SNs and the details on 95820. I've added the info to my 348 VIN database.

Any more pics of 98159?

 

Someone who wants the best 348 Challenge car for a collection wants an unraced car. I attended some of the races and the cars were beaten on pretty badly. Lots of sheet metal damage and worse. That would be one thing if they were contesting an endurance championship at the hands of Phil Hill or Olivier Gendebien, but these were club race cars driven by amateur racers, so the value of any race history is dubious to anyone who has been around race cars enough to know the toll that racing takes on a car. A championship winning car, or a car driven by someone semi-notable (Derek Hill, maybe), might gain some value from its history, but unless a raced car could be documented as never having been pranged I'd take an unraced (or barely raced) car any day of the week unless I were planning to race the car wheel-to-wheel.

 

That's Great Robb! Finally some info! I really appreciate it. That's a great start for me, I asked Ferrari of Houston. My local dealer Miller motor cars. Ferrari north America and a few others with no answers. And boom here you got it with a picture. It looks different today with the Speedlines on it. But it does have the full parts list. Cage. Wheels. Brake ducts. Steering wheel. Seats. Pedels. Fire ex Etc. I will fill in my profile for the guys on here. Thanks
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

97985 in post 23 is my old car. I sold it several months ago.

It was MALEX's before that, too.

 

I'm a little confused here and was hoping to get some clarification. First of all I will start on the assumption that 97985 is a beautiful time capsule car. That said I do not understand the following:

1. How is this car classified as a 'Competition Car'? From what I see it has no competition history, no logbook was ever issued for it, nor did it ever pass any sanctioned scrutineering. Ferrari may have called it a 'Challenge Car' but they never even supplied the correct racing parts for it (those were sourced NOS ages later) and it spent its entire life on the street. Surely there must be something more than a Ferrari issued title of 'Challenge' to qualify a car as a race car?

2. Despite the obvious impeccable visual condition of the car, how did this car score Platinum? Again just judging from the photos I see some of the Challenge safety items fitted but not nearly enough of them to have made the car eligible for racing. The cage is incomplete, & there is no fire system. Surely these omissions would immediately forfeit a platinum score. In addition the OMP markings on both the seat belts and rear roll hoop are of a much newer design (a glaring error found in the movie RUSH BTW). I can only judge on a few photos but I just don't see how 97 points was achieved.

3. Lastly in the words of Denis Jenkinson 'Who wins is of little consequence until I find out who finished second'. That said if this 348 won best competition car which were the cars that were runner up or considered for the prize?

 

The terms of the award specify only that it be made or intended (I do not recall the exact words) for competition. No actual competition history is required. The car in question #98159 was in as delivered condition, it is a Challenge optioned car and was the best Ferrari on the field with that distinction entered into competition that received a platino award. The old saying "if you don't enter you cant win" is appropriate.

As for your last question I see no need to answer a question intended to diminish the mans award. Personally I prefer to congratulate him for it.

On any given weekend as judges we can only judge the cars presented to us on the field that day.

Maybe you should read a poem by Theodore Roosevelt called "Man In The Arena".

 

I realize that I have the advantage of having been there are seen both cars up close, but why do you guys insist on conflating two different vehicles? One (97985) had most, but not all, of its Challenge equipment installed, while the other (98195), which won this award, had none (although the owner did recently acquire a full Challenge kit, it remains uninstalled), and the car never turned a wheel in competition.
I too question classifying a car that never ran in the Challenge Series and has no race equipment as a competition car, but Brian's point is well-taken.
Personally (and I'm far from objective), I prefer one like mine- a factory Challenge car that remains "as-raced"- except that I've relegated the side-bar from the roll cage to the garage so that I can climb in/out more easily, and run R-compound tires, since I drive to/from the track. It's in very strong mechanical condition, with cosmetics that are very good- for a car that's been on-track all its life- and that's more appealing to me than one that wins a Platinum. To each, his own.

 

It would be useful to look at the field and see what and how many comp cars were entered before some statements are made. We have judged active "as raced" cars there before and the concept of a concours sort of leaves them out. They never out of necessity remain stock and cosmetics are understandably not a big priority. At that point, what is left? If the car looks reasonable from the stands that is typically good enough. I judged an NGT there a year or two ago that was just as it came off the track. A piece worth preserving to be sure but I had to explain that there was no way we could give the cosmetic condition a pass, there is no provision for it. I also judged an NGT at the last FCA National. The owner does track the car but went to great lengths to bring cosmetic standards up to what was needed. That is just not practical for a car being raced. The 2 activities are at odds. The rules are written to include street cars, in many ways minor allowances are made but that is worlds apart from an active race car.

The bottom line here is this car deserved and won an award that many do not understand. Instead of challenging it they should educate themselves about it.

 

You're right, of course- which is why so few real race cars are judged, and are more often "display" only.

 

Brian perhaps I should clarify my position a little here. First of all 'Man In The Arena' is my favorite all time quote (been on my FB page since I joined 10 years ago) and I wholeheartedly agree with it. That said just because I was not there and or did not show a car it does not exempt me from having an opinion or asking questions.

Without a doubt the gentleman who won with the 348 Challenge WON as per the rules. He did not cheat or get a special exemption. For that reason you can never say that he did not win.

All further comments are directed at how things perhaps 'should' be and in no way is intended to take away from what is already done.

That said I now turn my attention to the FCA and their judging rules to perhaps open a line of discussion that could further the hobby and judging process as a whole. To this end I see two places worthy of attention:

1. As I have come to learn best competition car (BCC) is awarded to the BCC among the pool of BCC's that scored platinum. In this case there was only one eligible BCC platinum car so it was 'chosen' as the victor out of a pool of one. It is my opinion that the rules surrounding the handing out of these awards should account for a minimum number of eligible entries seeing as performance has already been dictated by the judging process. Part of the 'value' of an award is knowing you achieved it through competition. Not having competition show up is not a competitors problem but it inevitably robs an award of merit. Establishing rules to help prevent this maintains the prestige associated with the prize.

2. Perhaps the FCA should revisit how it classifies and considers 'competition cars'. IMHO classing a car as competition whether it be this 348 or a never raced 333SP goes against what Ferrari is all about. Ferrari makes race cars FIRST and a race car must be raced in order to be considered a race car. In fact the concours rules should even be different for racing cars where originality would trump condition. A fresh off the track LeMans winner covered in bugs and grease but 'competition authentic' should be able to compete against a restored 60's race car. There is no doubt that at Cavallino there was no shortage of true competition cars with race history and it should be telling that there was only one that adhered to the rules sufficiently to win. In this pool I include people who did not enter but had cars at the show as they perhaps did not enter given that the rules perhaps did not favor the typical life of a racing car.

Just my 2 Lire.