The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

WELCOME BACK MUIRASV you haven't posted here for a while and wanted to show you my appreciation and say thanks I hope you get many apologies from others from here.

 

While I can see how you might see it as a witch hunt... regarding character assassination it truly isn't.

No one is calling him names or going beyone the point of him being meerly "inaccurate" I think the tone has been pretty calm about this.

Why is the Ford story important and Jims character important?

Well.. alot of us... myself included gave Jim the benefit of the doubt when it came to many statements.

We all valued his the importance of his good character indirectly when we choose to believe circumstantial evidence and things that were "spoken" as opposed to written or documented with photographs etc...

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF... Jim was a documented.... .... .... .... fibber... no one would have ever taken the story of 0846 this far. Again, I am not calling him a liar... Im just saying a persons character is weighed in. Its the same reason why some people DON'T believe to this day that muriasv posts... because he came out "swinging" at Jim and perhaps didn't conduct himself with the best of manners. So to this day he is sweating those previous inter actions.

So if we go back and document all the things that are fibs or over generalizations such as J6 and commentary of... then we are right to at least know that he is capable of telling a certain sized "tale" if you will... It certainly paints a different picture of the MF story differently for me thats for sure. We had two different accounts of MF and one was Jims... I will say a pattern of over generalization or what have you will make me look at word of mouth storys from Jim slightly differently... as they say... with a grain of salt

Again, Im not saying Jim is a bad guy or an out right liar! I want to make this clear. We all have our own "perspective" I feel knowing the rest of the story around some of the other cars gives us a chance to view the car from his prospective.

 

I am traveling on business right now, but when I get home, I will post a picture of a gold watch given to my Grandfather. In 1936, he was the MVP of a semi-pro baseball league. On the Reverse side of the watch it is inscribed in part "K.C League." Seeing as my grandfather was in Kansas City in 1936 playing baseball, we all assumed this was the Kansas City League, as there actually was a Kansas City League semi pro league.

After a number of years telling everyone that my grandfather was the MVP of the Kansas City League and got a gold watch for it, my grandmother informed me that my grandfather was the MVP of two leagues in 1936. One was the Kansas City League and one was called the King Cotton League in the Carolinas and Georgia. Turns out the watch came from the King Cotton League.

The point is that I don't consider the statement about Kansas City League MVP as being a lie, it is simply that this was the most logical and most obvious answer available at the time. Turns out that the King Cotton League was more competitive than the KC League and it was a greater honor to have the gold watch from King Cotton.

 

Far better to spend your time asking Jim about where he got the story that the original 0846 was rebuilt by Ferrari after it was burned out at Le Mans as you seem to have a direct line to him, and he has not posted on this thread in a long time.

 

Poll! Poll! Poll!

 

If anyone ever wondered...."How many nails does it take to nail a coffin closed"...

Steve has proved MORE than enough nails to close this coffin on 0846...

Anyone still believing in 0846 as being real, truly can NOT see the forest through the trees

 

FYI
Today I spoke with well known Dutch Ferrari historian J-L Bezemer.
We checked all his files and photos (and he has hundreds on the Ps)
Mugello did not happen
Ferrari never tested in 1967 or 1968 at the ROAD track Mugello
Ferrari tested at Monza, Autodromo Modena, Vallelunga and Pergusa in 66-67-68
Ferrari only worked on the Can Am Ps in 68 and later in the year on the 312P Spyder 0868
Press was always present when they tested Ps and F1s. There is even film of tests.
In one Italian magazine they wrote about the Ps with a ZF box and a wheelbase of 2412mm
0846 never had a ZF box and thus never had a wheelbase of 2412mm.
Factory info: 2400mm as P3 and as P4
Also a P3/4 never existed: P3 or P4
After my talkings with a Ferrari classiche insider about what happened with the chassis: dismantled at the factory, frame scrapped. Parts used for spares.
Ferrari did not loaned the P4 plans to third parties.
Diena & Silingardi had P4 plans and the original coachbuilder
Jim told me that factory still have 0846 tag in their files.

 

They would have found it difficult as Mugello didn't open as a track until 1974. Before that the Mugello races were road races similar to the MM or Targa Florio.
Nathan

 

Ferrari factory documents do not show a 68 Prototype.
MF does not know anything about the 68 Prototype with a lowered engine and moved forward.
Ferrari made a new statement to Keith Bluemel however:
Ferrari has clearly confirmed in writing that they sent the chassis to customer service department for eventual use.
That contradicts with their earlier statement. Dismantled and frame scrapped after LM.
As these letters or emails are written by important people of classiche (Vaglietti, Arrighi or Barp) this is easy to check, just ask Bluemel!!

 

An already thick plot thickens!

 

That throws the cat among the pigeons......

 

More mis-information, or fake news.
This is NOT a new statement.
See 2004 article: https://www.velocetoday.com/cars/cars_69.php
The letters and emails are NOT by important people of Classiche. They pre-date the Classiche Dept.
Nathan

 

Interesting what Mr Glickenhaus said above regarding Mugello along with lots of other disproved information.

 

Ok Nathan, I thought it was a new statement by Ferrari.
I can only think of Vaglietti, Arrighi or Barb who can make an official statement to an owner.
Not to me, you or anyone else.
An owner need to bring the car to the factory. Like what Mr. Schouwenburg did with 0720.
They will inspect and make a statement. Written.

The only way 0003/0846 can be "reinstated" as 0846 is: Classiche
F has the chassis tag in their possession (JG told me)

 

Referring to your quoted post of Napolis:

Jim has a way of really confusing the topics and time lines. Im not saying he is doing this on purpose... He just isn't clear in his writing. I think that is the source of where things get confused and the pro 0846 people get there ammunition.

Jim is saying Jim Meade offered offered 0846 for sale in 1971. Jim states"in front of (name drops important ferrari people)... Then says he declined or moved on to purchasing his lola instead because he Meade wasn't returning his calls and if he was going to pay 19k dollars for Jim Meade to resurect 0846 he wasn't handling the initial phone calls well so the build process would likely become even more of a pain in the ass...

But Jim.... didn't start collecting cars and didn't have the money to do this until after his 1980 film the exterminator and then his dad invested the money and it grew into what it is today etc... (this isn't a slam on how he has his money im just presenting the time line)

So... He states 1971... then the next sentance talks about who he was in front of to witness it... and then references moving on and buying a different car with no mention of a different time not even the use of the words... "later"

So Jim was offered the car in 1971 and he didn't buy it.

Also can I mention that Jim was 20 or 21 years old in 1971.

This isn't a witch hunt of Jim... more of an explination of how some of his communications may not be as accurate or literal as everyone takes them. Again... NOTHING dubious... or evil or whatever... Its the internet... God knows I have misspelled and misspoken probably 5 words in this post! Read my posts... sometimes I am doing them when I am in a rush and have so many things going on that... well... my posts could use an english interpreter

 

Not really true. He had his 275 GTB/4 very young and the Lola which was his first Race car for the road he bought when very young, too in 1971. The 'collection' happened after 1980 but he already had the Lola.

I do agree he confuses things with his writing, though.

 

Was a 275 GTB 2 cam alloy. Lucky Jim, ha.

 

ohh ok... and thank you for getting the "point" of my writing... is that things in writing especially casual can be confusing or multiple thoughts can be put down and while they relate.... the whole picture doesn't relate. In otherwords the 1st sentance doesn't mean the 2nd sentence is related.

But I am always willing to accept responsibility for a mistake if that is the case.

 

Jim talks about his great car collection here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6qpq7hyQlY

 

As a neutral observer....Jim is not talking about the nuances of a Chevy Cosworth Vega, he is making statements/claims about his ownership of an extremely RARE Ferrari "if" & it's not... #0846.

So in my opinion EVERY claim/statement Jim makes in regards to the lineage & history of 0846 should be 100% ACCURATE!

A person doesn't have to be Perry Mason to realize & understand that "Supposition" is not acceptable as a legal stance/defense/position.

Metaphorically..if I was holding a pound of Swiss cheese, I would not make the statement that there weren't any holes in it!

 

So now I am really confused...

National speed of 55mph was signed on Jan 2nd 1974 when he had the 275...

yada yada yada

Last car he sold was the 275 because he had to sell it to fund the purchase of his Lola...

So... what Im scratching my head at is... well... its 1974... and later... but he is talking about purchasing it in 1971... and turning it down to buy his lola which he purchased sometime after 1974 but before 1980.

Again, my point isn't to pick on Jim specifically. But... unless someone is being SPECIFIC we shouldn't make the assumption of time lines etc... when it comes to Jim and 0846. It has been shown that his statements and perhaps memories are or have blended a bit and perhaps statements cant be 100% relied upon as we see some inconsistencies (again not picking on Jim G... we are all human and susceptible to it)

 

Also for the record

FerrariChat.com: Mr. Glickenhaus's 1967 Ford Mk IV

SMH

 

You left out picking up Miles Davis after he crashed in his 275 and hiding his dope.

 

I'm sure you know it was a Miura, not a 275 that Miles Davis crashed in 1972.
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Didn't know that. Maybe he was talking about driving his 275. Whatever.