TDF F12 488 lap times at Fiorano

The TDF was 2 seconds faster than the F12 and 488.

It will be interesting to see how the 812 does against the TDF.

Some seriously fast times!

 

Several sources on the web point to an even smaller gap of 1.4s between F12 and TDF. And TDF level performance was the goal for the 812 according to the engineers. Their straight line performance for 0-100 and 0-200 seem almost identical. It would be interesting to see just how close the 812 is to the TDF on Fiorano.

 

.5 seconds is the answer. Slower

 

Their paint has always been one of your quibbles. I would be curious about what the factory has to say once they lay eyes on a perfect paint tdF now.

 

I suspect they will all say "bellissimo!" for one of the most tasteful and beautifully specified TDF's!

 

can that 0.5s difference be solely attributed to the TDF's Pirelli Corsa tyres vs 812SF P Zeros?

 

I think the 812 should be wearin the new Michelin Pilot Sport 4s!

The 4s are the best street tires. Best stopping and cornering in dry and wet, and best treadlife.

 

I doubt fiorano lap times, cuz many any other media lap times 458 outrun F12, just like they said F12 lap time was 2 seconds faster than 458 at fiorano, but in some real lap times F12 was slower than 458, I doubt F12 TDFs lap times can be faster than 488 outside fiorano

 

Lap times do depend on the course, the tires, the conditions and the driver.

Ferrari does a lot of testing at Fiorano. That is a very good thing. I also think that they cannot afford to introduce new models which aren't superior than their legacy.

Also it is nice to see that the 458 and 488 are being raced at Le Mans, Daytona etc. This gives another perspective on their competitiveness.

If you don't believe the lap times, believe the racing. The 488 is faster than the 458.

The TDF is faster than the 458 and 488

 

Hard to say, but it will be a bit closer of course.

What is more interesting is to find out what tyre was actually on the 812 they've set that lap time with. If it was the P Zero 4 or the comparable MPSS, and they then later offer the new MPSS successor, the MPS4S, the times will probably be even closer than the 0.5 second. Michelin is seriously on top of their game right now and I'd be hard pressed to think their MPSS successor will be anything but absolutely stellar.

 

It probably will at some point. It does not look like that size is available here in Europe just yet, but that does not mean it's not in the pipeline. Let's hope they continue the trend of releasing game changers like the MPSPS2 and MPSS were when they came out

Would be great if those of you who go to Geneva could post up some tyre data. Make, model and sizes.

 

Interesting point.

I recall the the car at the preview wore Michelin Pilots but cannot remember whether they were the newer 4S. Given the front tyres are now the same size (275) as the TDF's I guess someone might have a go at putting the TDF's P Zero Corsas on one, and then you have an even closer comparison. May be of academic interest only given TDF is a very different driving tool.

 

I am really not surprised by the F12 being significantly quicker than the 458, actually even the 599 GTB is very close to the 458.
This is reflected in the "official" Fiorano times (most of them released by Ferrari themselves).
When track times of different cars are established by the same professional driver, the difference is meaningful; but not so much if they are established by different journalists. Said journalists are also typically more familiar with rear-mid engined sports cars, which does not play in favour of the front-engined V12s.

 

Agreed.

It's definitely academic. The two cars are about as different as can be.
I had an interesting chat with a friend of mine about the 812 vs. TdF a few days ago, and we touched upon something I haven't seen discussed so much. The 812 is almost as fast as the TdF, but it's probably much more "sedate". This could actually mean that the 812 would be faster in the hands of "normal" drivers not able to push the wild TdF to the limit. I think for most of us who do some track days each year, maybe do the Corse Pilota etc. but not race, a more sedate car will often be the faster car. Does it change anything about the TdF? Nothing.

It will be interesting to see what will happen when someone puts on the P Zero Corsa 4 tyres for the TdF - because I'm 99.99% sure someone will. Hopefully Michelin will also add the size to the MPSC2 line, but I honestly doubt very much they'll actually do that.

 

Just to clarify (possibly a stupid question, as I know little about tyres), do you mean putting P Zero Corsa 4 on the TDF or on the 812? Wasn't sure whether those tyres are different to those P Zero Corsas fitted to the TDF as standard.

 

Nothing stupid in that question. I'm the one not being very detailed abou things.

The current generation of P Zero and P Zero Corsa are the 4 th. generation. Currently the P Zero 4 is used on the GTC4 and 488. The P Zero Corsa 4 is used on the TdF with MPSS as a more street friendly option. Funny thing is that this is the first time Pirelli has referred to the P Zero line with a number designating the generation, so it's not exactly an obvious thing.

So yes, I'm talking about putting the TdF specific PZC4 on the 812.

 

Got it. Much appreciate the explanation.

 

Fully agreed. I've seen Traveller (and maybe others, apologies if I forget) make this point in other threads.

So it wouldn't even matter so much to the TDF owner, I think, if the 812 is a little bit faster as the driving experience will be so different between the two cars. Ideally, one would have both!

 

Any vehicle that is fast but hard to drive fast is usually shied away from and actually considered 'slow'. When new bikes come out each year they get reviewed by all the journalists. Often the most powerful bikes are not the best bikes if they do no promote fast laps. Even the pros want a vehicle that is easy to drive fast. Just the way it is. Many journalists are surprised whey they ride works bikes at how easy they are to ride fast compared to stock bikes.

This does not apply to exotic street machines such as the cars we love. Here, no one is racing and if it takes the average bear a lot more effort to feel like they are going at a good clip then the more enjoyment we get and the faster or 'visceral' we say it is. Two totally different worlds.

 

So quick update. Was informed that the 812 runs on the new MPS4S, So does that mean the TdF and 812 will be even closer on the same tyres? I'm pretty sure they will. Academic, but still interesting.

 

Agreed, I think the TDF is likely to go down in Ferrari history as a very special machine while the 812 will be a superb GT giving the average driver more ability to use its power. I think Ferrari has covered its bases very well.

 

I am sure there is nothing in the lap times and I don't really care, as after just 50 miles in my tdf, I felt my trousers were on fire.....

 

Hope you specced the optional extinguisher!!!

 

At the Geneva show, both 812s were shod with the new Michelin Pilot 4S tires.

If you watch this video and pause it you can see the tires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawMIVzbFFs

 

Ha! There's a simple solution to that..

As to the tires, I wonder if the TDF would benefit from the new Michelin Pilot Sport 4S vs its special designed Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires. My wild guess is the Pirellis are likely stickier on the track as they have a narrower design brief- whereas the Michelins have to be a more typical high performance summer tire. However, as the MPS4S is the successor the MPSS, I bet they would make a difference to the F12b times.