Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Hmm, did you forget a certain someone here with multiple screen names said something about me 'lying' when I said telemetry overlap cannot be trusted all the time? It all depends on the refresh rate.

For pure speed read out, a GPS can be quite accurate, I believed the latest Race Logic Vbox does it at 10Hz or 20Hz, that's accurate enough.

But for rpm and other stuff, those has to be read from the OBD port, and that's notoriously slow. Most readers only do it like 5-8Hz.

For some capture software, they also read the speed from the OBD port only, and that reading will be differs from the GPS reading.

I was looking into this when I was finding a good setup for my GT4 Clubsport, I ended with with the RaceCapture system that does both GPS and OBD readout at close to 50Hz.

 

That's what you wish. Mr lying 'engineer'.

Even dropping to Race mode the Cg of the P1 is still above the wheels centreline.

You forgot that big chunk of battery at driver's shoulder height? In the 918, the battery basically extends from the bottom of the floorpan to about 10 inches above. Same with the engine, if you stand next to the car the top of the engine is below your knees.

As for the smaller wheels, that basically means the wheels centerline are even lower to the ground than in the 918, which is why it is impossible for the P1 to have a lower Cg than the 918. Simple mathematics calculations dude.

Race mode only means the P1 drops it's Cg to an acceptable height, which is still higher than a 918.

 

What do I know driving these cars in real life, that guy watching youtube videos knows it all. Why don't you ask him instead? I means, surely youtube videos are more accurate than driving the cars for real.


Do you really want me to actually say something? you do realize that noise maker is gonna drown out everything with his noise right?

P1 gained what, 1.5 seconds switching from tailored made Corsa to off the shelf Trofeo Rs in a 1 min something lap. I forgot what my Huracan came with, it's been on winter tires for so long, but I think it came with Corsa too, but likely less bespoke than the P1's Corsa. So that makes what? A 7.5+ second gain from tires alone on the Ring? But also considered that those Trofeo Rs on the Performante would be the latest generation ones, which will likely be even stickier than the ones on the P1, so perhaps another 2.5 seconds total gain? That's 10+ seconds right there over a regular Huracan.

The aero part. Performante has active aero that can control down force side to side, which means it will be more effective than a simple big wing in corners. This advantage will be more noticeable in slower speed corners, where conventional wing doesn't provide meaningful downforce.

918 doesn't have a lot of downforce, and it can't be biased towards either side, all it has was pure mechanical grip from the tire width and geometry setup with a low Cg, which means it basically puts all 4 tires to work instead of relying on the outside tires only. Conventional cars with Cg higher than the wheels' enter line means in a corner, it has a natural tendency to lift the inside wheels, unloading them and thus the tires will provide less grip. When the Cg of the car is lower than the wheels' centerline, on cornering, the opposite actually applies, it leans the inside wheels back down and thus utilizing the grip from the inside tires too. Just imagine a triangle, the long side is the wheels centreline, and the 'point' of the triangle is the car's Cg and the 2 sides connecting is the suspension, or the force applied to the suspension to be more accurate. If that point is below the line, the triangle is 'upside down' and when moving the 'point' to one side, it 'pull's the opposite side down. 918 also doesn't have the stickiest rubber, the Cups on them are ECO ones, not the stickier ones on the GT3RS, both of which are inferior to the Trofeo Rs.

Anyway, I don't know how much the active aero is worth for time gained, so can't really comment on that. But what I know is, for fastest laps, the top speed is not the key, but the highest average speed, that means gaining time at the slower sections. So HP is not that important, it is still but cornering grip is the key. One reason why race cars are that much faster than street cars, they have less HP than say a P1, a 918 or whatever, but the HP only counts at the end of straights. Race cars are faster simply because they can corner that much harder.

Do I believe a Performante can beat the 918s' time fair and square? Why not? It is possible on paper.

 

Very detailed response yet again Nick, thanks for your thoughts man. I've yet to floor it in a Huracan. How's the acceleration compare to a 991 TTS?

 

for what it's worth, the tires Performante will come with, are both new, updated rubber, though they will be using same names Trofeo R and Corsa, the latter using an agressive new dual compound structure. new Mac 720 will be using this tire also. from the NB test, the Lambo driver that drove the new lap record has put it down to mostly tire performance. that is his overall opinion in how the car was able to go so quick.

and to add to what you were saying about average speed being more important. that is correct. NB GT3 racers run the NS section in the 6:30's, and the whole race circuit combined in the low 8 min's. These cars have well under 600hp, and they all roughly achieve max speed around 180-185 mph. they are quick simply because they can carry so much speed into, through, and out of corners. and that is also why 918 is so quick around EVERY track. it will be interesting to see how much Porsche gives a rats ass, if they will go back with track specific Cup 2's similar to GT3 RS (or even better, the previously rumored track specific 918 tires). heck, Trofeo R's are now available in 918 size, so even running on those, the car would surely do better than 6:50. we shall see.

 

yes all very interesting, but does not look to me that the customer cars will have the same rubber as the car that set the ring time.
"
The Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tyres, in 245/30ZR20 at the front and 305/30ZR20 at the back were designed specifically by Pirelli’s engineers for the record attempt. The team was able to develop these tyres in just three months, thanks to advanced modelling techniques and correlation of on-track data with telemetry. As a result, the combined work of Pirelli and Lamborghini’s engineers meant that a base set-up was established with one development session."

 

After my time on track in my 918, along side P1, Lafa, etc.....It took all of 300 yards in the standard car for me to work out that, no way would 20bhp and bit of trick aero would make up the Gap. No doubt that a car went round the ring in very fast time though.....

IMHO

 

Given Porsche always understate their performance can it not be they slowed down their own lap videos not to look too quick?

Seems the most logical explanation

 

Ah, thanks for the info. The folks in the rubber biz that I talked to didn't make things 100% clear about that. Just that the Trofeo R and Corsa are new tires. Though it looks like the Performante will definitely come with the new 'Corsa' dual compound tire, which was designed to mimic Trofeo R's but also offer greater durability and more forgiving inclement weather behavior. The Mac 720 thus will get Mac specific versions of this new 'Corsa' tire as well. I'll seek clarification on whether or not the special brew Trofeo R's will enter mass production.

 

Yes, even with special brew tires, that time is still very very quick...an indication that the platform had great potential to start with.

 

Yeah, same guys who did the moon landing.

Or the non-GPS Lamborghini speedo is optimistic. JFC, I've seen a Huracan speedo go 0-300kph in 20s dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8nuXs3iWCw

 

So it's your position that magazine testers are further away from a factory time with an LFA than they would be for a 12C? Because the 12C is easier to control than an LFA? Yeah right.

12C supertest 7:28. NE 7:34 -> 7:14. 7:28 -> 7:08.

12C:
5s faster than LFA on Balocco
2s faster on Laguna
3s faster on Autocar Dry Handling
3s faster on Hockenheim Short
10s faster on 'ring in magazine test

/The End

You have no logic. You have dismissed all the above as a massive coincidence as you do with all the hundred plus data points for any McLaren. Your mind is made up and you are psychologically incapable of admitting you are wrong.

The 650S Sauma (who's slower than CG) tested was a lemon with 600ps. Most customer cars measure 675ps stock.
McLaren 650S Fabspeed ECU Tune - Fabspeed Motorsport

The 650S was 1.1s faster on Killarney and 2.5s faster on Vairano.

You have debunked nothing. Your kind are still making up moon landing style conspiracies about the Performante. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

 

He doesn't have a pre-production 918. If he sticks it in Race Hybrid Mode instead of HL, that's about 'ring 918 power level.

 

Yeah, except Salomondrin in a clown, he tests on a simple track, unlike the 'ring and gets times 5s out of whack with other testers. Aside from that, his hatred towards Lamborghini and McLaren, and love towards Porsche is more than clear in his videos besides. Found a GT3 RS to be as fast as an LT. LMFAO.

 

Just because you don't actually understand engineering, there's no need to call engineers liars. Race Mode lowers the whole car significantly. Smaller wheels means the axle height is lower anyway. And shorter engine stroke means the engine (a major weight component) is lower.

It's not at the drivers shoulder height. And the battery is <5% of the car's weight, which itself is 150kg less than the 918's.

You realise that doesn't make sense right? Height of CoG relative to axle does not equal outright height of CoG.

 

Depends on the corner speed. Take corner before main straight on Portimao, 100+mph exit speed, P1 faster all the way down that straight at ever point, even on Corsas. 918 does great at Anglesey, because all the corners are slow and the average speed is only 75mph.

 

Looking forward to try this new tyre, I have a 991.2 GTS Targa later this month, with these on. They are rated very highly. I don't believe for one second though that they will offer the same amount of Lateral grip as the Trofeo R. The most you will get from a Trofeo R is about 2 good track days, (they are super sticky )that's around 200 Miles per day. The Cup 2S on the RS last a lot longer. Unlike the Trofeo wear rate is not the Problem, I have binned my last set at 2.5mm, its heat cycles, after 25 or so the grip starts to fall away.

I have Blk Blk 720s in June with them on also......

 

Very "Special car" that did the time, imv....My 91RS will deal with standard car on track...

 

Ah, I see you are embarrassing yourself again in public. what's new.

Race mode lowers the whole car, but it's still not low enough to put the car's Cg, aka roll center below the wheels centreline. Had the P1 came in larger wheels, then it might have a chance to move the Cg below the larger wheels' centreline. Might is the key word, as the heavy battery is still way in the air.

Argue all you want, but when you sit down in the P1 in the driving position the battery IS at shoulder height. Unless you were thinking of being shoulder height in a stand up position haha. But I don't think even you can be that stupid.

As a self-described 'engineer', which like everything else you have ever posted, ould just be another lie, but we will let that go. Anyway, but if you are indeed is one, then you would have know that a shorter stroke doesn't automatically means shorter deck height. The deck of the block is only one variable, there is also the cylinder head assembles. Plus the configuration of the crankcase vs the cylinder block.

Ah, math challenged now? Stand alone, the height of the Cg doesn't mean much. But with that combined with the axle height means one can see how susceptible a car is to body roll, hence cornering attitude. That's where the P1 loses out even in Race mode, cause it cannot drop it's own Cg below the wheels centreline.

 

If the CoG is lower it's lower, the wheel centreline doesn't change the CoG height from the ground, which is what determines weight transfer.

Weight Transfer: how it works and how to use it in setup

http://racingcardynamics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Post1.3Figure1.jpg

Seems you are pretending to know about engineering as a substitute for having a degree in it.

It's only at shoulder height if you're orange and have green hair.

And once again you're looking at 5% of the car's weight, less than the driver, who sits many inches lower in the P1 because they're not sat on the battery and because the car is lower and on smaller wheels anyway.
http://www.dragtimes.ru/d/story/c4/3780/a561c301fa7e3a1eb9fc5eb9d1e956bd.jpg

Meanwhile the other 95% of the car is lower.

Well I know how CoG is measured and how it presents in the weight transfer calculation, which is evidently more than you know. Nice try though. here, you might try this:

Buy Real Degree | Buy UK & US Real University Degree
Get a College Degree in 24 hrs

Wow! If you designed cars, they'd have tractor tyres, with the axle mounted to the roof. That way the CoG would be way below the axle height.


Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I agree, I don't think customer Performante, even with the special brew tires, will be able to duplicate the camouflage car. My understanding is that engineers were able to further tune the chassis to take full advantage of the roll cage and extra grip from the tires...that along with 'undisclosed' massaging of ECU to allow engine performance on the edge of tolerances. Nonetheless, the time is still very impressive (looking from the perspective of Lambo taking the platform to the realm of "...this is what's possible IF we did this and added 'that'" and still not be THAT far over the 'stock' line. They did this same thing with the SV (and using what I am now gathering to be a development version of the forthcoming 'Corsa' tires). Do i believe 918 on comparable tires would easily best it? Absolutely.

As for the new Corsa's, yes I agree that they will not approach Trofeo R's in outright grip. The claim is that they will be 'near' track tire grip while offering very good streetability and longevity. How 'near'? you'll find out soon enough when you get your car and let us all know

 

The 991 GT3 RS doesn't even handle a normal Huracan.
Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 vs Porsche 911 GT3 RS - FastestLaps.com

 

that guy is an idiot. an 'engineer' that stupid? basics: shorter stroke means absolutely dick in terms of automatically making the engine lower. OMG, that is soooooo stupid. There are many other components of engine design that affect how low it can/will sit.

 

Given that the V angle is the same at 90deg, a shorter stroke would make the CoG lower even if the crank centreline was at the same height, however because the P1 axle height is lower because the wheels are smaller, the crank centreline is likely lower too (below axle in P1), since it's driving that axle. The electric motor and transmission in the P1 is also mounted below rear axle height. Those 3 items weighing several times more than the battery in total, not to mention the driver, who also sits lower than in the 918.

You may also want to fact check your buddy's post. He has a very liberal relationship with facts and the truth.

 

7.28 best time for H, RS did 7.20 Then did a bit better on same day when track dried out...
H also matched LT time on Trofeos. (Sport Auto) But on track day in real life on track H is low hanging fruit in the corners for an 91RS....