F cars with cam belts

Bruce- Only 5 years for the V12s with the new Kevlar belts introduced in 2002. The V8s are still only 3 years recommended change interval as shown above, possibly because of the higher redlines.

What it really comes down to is there are recommended change intervals from Ferrari, but nobody really cares how often you change your cambelts except you. Waste of time trying to convince someone one way or the other.

 

agree 100% Wade!!

 

There is an elapsed time factor as well though but Lotus did exactly the above.

This was using an HTD belt with the larger rounded teeth though, not the 3x8 type of belt, but they drove the crap out of an Esprit for 100K miles on one belt. The belt was in perfect condition afterwards and the measured tension was exactly the same as when fitted.

 

Are all the factors roughly the same between cars; heat, curvature of belt run, tension, exposure, yada, yada, yada?

If not it is a false comparison.

My original BMW 520 belt lasted almost 17 years and 200K miles.

The next one lasted about 5 years and less than 50K miles and was supposedly a generation newer design.

 

Here's how I've always worked out the cambelt change intervals on My cars:

Ferrari 348 TS: Ferrari recommend changing the cambelt every 3 years, so I change the belt every three years.

BMW E12 5 series /E28 5 series/E30 3 series: BMW recommend changing the cambelt every 3 years or 36,000 miles (whichever comes first), and so I replaced the belt every 3 years or 36,000 miles - whichever came first.

Why? - Because for all of these cars, changing the cambelt at the recommended time is a damn site cheaper than an engine rebuild/engine replacement!

On the 348, pretty much all of the Ferrari independent specialists have got the engine out belt change down to a fine art and charge around £750 ($935) for the job. So over a three year period, that works out at @ £4.90 ($6.11) a week - Hardly a bank breaker! (and definitely cheaper than taking a gamble on the belt not failing!)

 

Phil, Amazingly good prices for an engine out service. My last one was 6000 euros at an Indy. Nothing done but the timing belt. You live in a wonderful world. I have seen some German garages with documented experience now offering 2500 euro belt changes for the 348's. But I have not found a garage anywhere that will do this job for $1000. I don't think we would be having these discussions if your prices were available everywhere. Cheers!

 

Not suggesting there is any comparison, just thought it was interesting that they did the test the post above mentioned, which I replied to. Maybe its not interesting.

 

My experience with my F355 was not the same as Phil's. However I think some specialists are more consistent with their prices than other perhaps.
That said the prices for engine out Ferrari belt changes in the UK are possibly the cheapest in the world!

 

This appears to be the case in general, including "engine in" belt changes on 3x8 etc and general service prices. In the UK Ferrari official service agents will also try to match these prices if you ask them. They will price older cars at rates which compete with the specialists.

 

Ok, I'll fess up. In 2010 I had a belt failure on my 308. From what diagnostic research we could do (i.e. me and a long, long time pro) the initial cause seemed to be related to rodents dropping nut shells in the timing belt. However, once the car was torn down it was found that one of the cam drive pulley bearing was a little wobbly, causing misalignment which resulted in the belt riding up in the pulley fence and being cut leading to the failure. belt age, tensioner bearing age and previous installation (tension) had nothing to do with it. Repair was not that expensive in my case. a couple of grand over the basic major which was being done at the same time. Damage was limited to 2 bent intake and 2 bent exhaust valves. (85 QV) Engine kept running after belt broke too. Valves were barely bent.
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Weren't you one of those in early threads on this subject one who claimed it was foolish to change low mile belts and that yours were on for longer than the ferrari tsb of 3 years?

 

One belt for each bank. Engine continued to run on 4. The way it failed I though I lost ignition on one bank. actually drove it home 3 miles on one bank.

I never said it was foolish. But I have been open about my cars and what I have done and also stated I was not making any recommendations; everyone should do what they are comfortable with. The failure on my 308 was in 2010, before I bought my 355, and had nothing to do with belt age or tensioner bearings. It was though to be the cam drive pulley bearing issue. Changing the belts every 3 years would not have prevented the failure. A bearing, any bearing, can fail in minutes. Currently the belts on my 308 are 7 years old and I'm not worried. Belts on the 355 are 4, and again, I'm not worried.

I would also like to note that when I bought my 355 I didn't just find a car I was interested in, vet it, then buy it. I looked at over a dozen cars over 3 years, F1 and gated, different years, colors, etc. When I finally decided on what color (I started with anything but red) car I wanted I looked at another 5 before I found the one I bought which had things I wanted: challenge grill, Tubi, fresh major with valve guides... Of all the cars viewed and records checked, not a single one, regardless of how well documented, had any indication that it had a major every 3 years. More than half had gone over 5, some well over. The one I bought, a 95, has records of a major in 02, 06, and 13. So that's 7, 4 and 7 years.

I wonder what we would see if owners here would look over their records and checked the history of how long their cars went between belt changes. Seems odd that with the frequency of these belt threads no one has bothered to collect that data and analyze it.

Tell you what, being retired I have plenty of time on my hands. Anyone who cares to, check you records and send me the years and model of you car and a list of the years a belt change was done. If enough of you reply I'll tabulate it all and post the result in graphical form. And if you had a belt failure indicate that. email me at johnk "at" musicanddesign "dot" com Let's put this thing to bed once and for all with real world data.

 

John, you have been here a long time and you know that's never going to happen

I bought my 98 355 F1 in Jan. '13 and the car had a full major in May '12 (driven only a couple hundred miles before I bought it). So, I'm just about at 5 years.

My plan is to do my major in the winter of 17-18 and I'm not too concerned about it until then...

 

I know Dave, but I can dream.

 

Also, be aware that belts have a limited shelf life before installation. So don't try to carry spare belts in a hot environment and then expect to safely rotate them into use.

https://ww2.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=12909&location_id=19798

 

Maybe in your case maybe not. Recommended service interval also gives you a chance to feel and see other things you are not specifically servicing. Many times a bearing will give you a warning. You might feel roughness, play, or see grease dumping out the seals that kind of thing. If your tech is a part replacer on the clock for a specific duty that's a different story. 7 years on your 308 belt just isn't wise. Gates has a NOS service life of 8 years where GATES will tell you not to use a "new old stock" blue labeled belt if sitting on the shelf for 8 years. You have an in service belt for 7. We know that Ferrari cherry picks its belts for GATES. Even Ricambi further cherry picks those for fresh dates! There are more reasons to do these majors with belt changes every 3-5 years (most general consensus) than just swapping belts.

 

Why has my 2008 BMW 335xi with 130K miles, or for that matter, any other car I've ever owned not need needed a major?

I fully support proper service but with Ferrari is just seems to be a bit over the top

 

Well what is your definition of major service?

As the owner of 3 BMW's and one being an E90 2008 328i with 70K miles (your series BMW) I can tell you they all need service and regularly to run with clock work reliability. You can run your oem brake fluid for 130k miles and 8 years without flushing it but why? and would you? You got the same boshc ignition coils on yours? I have had to replace bosch coils on all 3 and my BIL's 328i too! I want my cars running top notch. I'm pulling my injectors even on a BMW and having them serviced. That's just me. My labor is free. If you got to pay then you take your poison however you wish.

The Ferrari engine bay is a blast furnace. It cooks everything rubber parts and electrical connectors. You know a water pump seal with low miles is more likely to leak that a waterpump that is turned everyday. There is always something to do on these cars.

 

My BMW has had the following service (from my memory):

- A bunch of blow bulbs, most covered under warranty, some even covered after warranty as my dealer rocks.
- Hi Pressure fuel pump recall
- Brakes
- yearly oil service
- Tires
- Water pump failed out of warranty - $2000
- Water pump failed a second time (many miles later) parts covered by prior pump warranty - I only paid labor.
- 1 failed spark plug - I fixed myself.

I'd say that's "clock work reliability"

The car has been my winter only car the last 3 seasons and it's the friggin energizer bunny. I put nothing more into than I need and it keeps going and going and going

 

My Toyota 4Runner says a new timing belt every 60K miles or 6 years. Granted it costs about $500 to have it done and there is only one of them... But regular belt changes is not that unusual. I have done 3 of them.

 

I live in Los Angeles county. 3 of those incidents could have resulted in being stranded. On my girl's bmw's they even got run flat tires! I don't want my girls stranded! That's not reliable enough for me.

 

My car has runflats too.

The only time I was stranded was the 1st water pump failure. It was not preventable.

 

Just an FYI sometimes it is preventable. I replace those wear items at 60k just because. At 60k I do lots of preventative stuff. I don't expect water pumps to go 100k but they sure can. Also on the E90 BMW the water pump has an electric T-stat. Often that will give you a soft failure OBD proprietary code (I forgot the number now). Omce you get that code water pump failure is not far behind. I will routinely plug in my OBD tester on all my cars to get a glimpse of how things are running all without getting my hands dirty. Overkill?? Maybe...