360 Challenge/Stradale Manual build thread

Are they not £100? [emoji54]


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Coz that is what Julian told me!![emoji23][emoji23]


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At that price can i have a set for my bicycle.

 

Ha. They were a good buy! You most likely already know about the ABS sensor incompatibility - probably easier to swap your rings onto the Scuderia hubs

 

The ABS module was changed on the F430 from Bosch 5 to 5.3, and along with it the ABS sensors were upgraded; unless I am mistaken the CS uses a 5.0 module and also F430 sensors are not compatible with the 360 module, and vice versa.

The Scuderia front hubs are unique and the caliper mounting bosses are 9mm longer to space the caliper to suit the 398mm (+18mm from the regular type) calipers. Challenge/Scuderia calipers themselves will work with a regular 380mm CCM setup but they are actually an upgraded version of the regular CCM caliper with additional bracing on the outboard edge to better support the larger pads. Challenge cars use regular hubs and a spacer stud to mount the callipers to suit 398mm discs, but its suboptimal (and very slightly heavier) than the Scuderia approach.

I'd keep the full set of Scuderia hubs (rears are the same as yours, but it's worth using the new parts) and swap over your ABS sensors to make them work - you can gently pry off the sensing element without dismantling the entire hub.

 

P.S. I based the above on the premise that what you have above is a Scuderia brake package. I'm 99% certain it is after looking at the fronts

 

Mark, the 430 Scuderia front hubs and originals actually work just fine with the 398mm disc matched calipers. I thought that the main reason why they differed was to give a slightly wider front track to the car to assist with reducing understeer without having to resort to any horrible aftermarket spacers to get the extra track.

I'm very familiar with the Bosch ABS ring situation as the analogue signal it generates is slightly different and incompatible with the older version (think it was actually a Bosch ABS 5.1) used on the 360. Its actually very simple to swap the rings over, ironically the F430 Challenge didn't adopt the later F430 ABS system, they retained the 360 Challenge ABS.

You can actually retrofit the F430 ABS into a 360 or vice versa but in order to do that it then involves swapping the ABS unit/computer/pump, as well as wiring in the Steering wheel angle sensor and moving over to the newer yaw sensors. The benefit of doing this is you then get ESP in a 360!!!

Also you can retrofit the F430 Scuderia steering wheel (or F430 steering wheel) into the older car to get switable traction control maps (manettino modes) but to get Scud rev counter you'd need to custom make some CAN bus board which intercepts the CAN signal sent between the twin ecu setup and sends it (in the right message format) back to the steering wheel. Gets complicated unless you have background in embedded software (which I have but its all entirely possible to do with a bit of jiggery pokery..

Trev

 

Trev, The 398mm calipers will not fit standard 460/F430 hubs without the Challenge studs which effectively space the mounting face 9mm outward to suit a +18mm disc. The 398mm calipers do not differ from the 380mm calipers in their mounting position - only by the additional reinforcement around the pad area - so in actual fact a 398mm caliper could be used as a bolt on for the 380mm CCMs but it would be to the detriment of unsprung weight and without any real gain.

The Scuderia front uprights do not increase track - not that I can see anyway! I've had them side by side with a standard hub to measure, before fitting to my car.

It is not possible to fit F430 ABS into a 360: the electronics in the F430 differ significantly heralding the arrival of the Florence Architecture, where the cluster (NQS), Suspension (NCS - I think!), Engine ECUs (NCM), E-Diff module, TCU (NCR), steering wheel node/Manettino (NVO) all participate in the safety and drive mode strategy. There is a lot of shared data between them. If one module is not present or is of the wrong software type then the systems are disabled. I know all this as I've just converted my car to Scuderia spec, which is a further advance again - I had to learn the car systems at a logical/software level to get things going.

I would be really surprised if the F430 wheel node (NVO) worked in a 360 - the CAN words changed in the F430's Florence Architecture and in fact there were even changes mid-model, as an MY08 F430 NVO won't work in a pre MY08 F430, and nor will a Scuderia's for the same reason. To make it work I think there would need to be a bespoke interface to work with the 360 NFR.

It's a similar story with the Scuderia steering wheel LEDs. They don't work in the F430 despite the NVO already being wired up to C-CAN, and the Bosch specification for its engine ECU CAN format remained the same, so it's not working with the Bosch data directly. What actually happens is the NQS is a gateway and requires a Proxi update to the correct software version, after which it uses with the Bosch RPM data to determine a specific message to send over C-CAN to the NVO - which in the Scuderia is specific with the RPM driver and extra software to deal with it.

Cheers,
Mark
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Relax Julian, your original sensor abs rings can be swapped over in no time at all... direct fit.

We where discussing upgrading electronics to newer car spec. The Bosch ABS computer on the 360 is version 5.1 I seem to recall so it has less advanced features than the version used on the F430, the most important one being ESP (Stabilility Programme) which makes it much safer in the hands of a novice.

I'm 100% convinced (despite Mark's posts about the hurdles faced) that it wouldn't be so difficult to detach its operations and make it work independently if your a bit of a hardware hacker.

Why? At the end of the day, it doesn't need a lot of inputs, your talking about items like a brake fluid pressure sensor, yaw rate sensors, wheel speed sensors and a steering angle sensor and operational mode from the switch (manetteno). These on modern implementations all use CAN bus to send their messages so I think it should be very straight forwards to get it working, even on a bench (with simulated inputs for sensor readings like wheel speeds).

There are even pre-made development boards aimed at enthusiasts and even young children that now incorporate can bus interfaces directly (or even via cheap add ons available from ebay). Search 'MCP2515 Controller Bus Module' and you can find them for less than a couple of $. So if you then sniff the CAN bus and work out the messages which are required for Bosch ABS 5.3 you could quite easily either convert those original analogue sensor readings into CAN messages with the same format that the computer expects or just use the original sensors from an F430. The only thing it requires to be able to do is cut the fueling via comms to the ECU, again these messages could be translated with a cheap $2 can bus module and even an automotive arduino clone which directly supports can built in and has automotive power regulation and accepts battery voltages directly. Even on a 360 which runs an old Motronic ME7.3 there is infact a CAN bus which exchanges info between Left and Right bank ecu's which you could tap into to get things like rev's.

If your willing to delve a deeper and use a RTOS with C programming you can use boards with STM32's, ebay search 'STM32F407VET6 Development Board Core407V Cortex-M4 STM32 Full I/O Expander' - they start from about $10 and represent great value. With these kind of device programmed appropriately to do any translations you need to get it working. Yes its a bit of work but not rocket science...

Trev

 

If you really need some help and want to do this I've done advanced C (and assembly) based projects since the early 90's I also have a decent USB CAN Bus sniffer and could even get you up and running quickly for very little other than some effort plus I have all the schematics and wiring diagrams.

 

I hate to be a kill joy, chaps, but it won't work. The core sensors can be connected very easily: lat/long yaw (NYL) is still analogue on the early F430 and is wired directly to the ABS module/brake node (NFR), the steering angle sensor (NAS) just links up to C-CAN as mentioned and won't cause any other issues, then finally swap to the F430 wheel sensors - which were changed to enable the NFR to detect driving direction - and that's covered basically everything that changed from a sensor perspective.

Unfortunately the above still doesn't come close to getting the system operational. As I touched on in my previous post there are many dependencies, so whilst this stuff is still fresh in my mind from my project I'll provide some below to give food for thought.

1) Drive mode strategy: the E-Diff module is part of the strategy and the Manettino (NVO) and ABS module (NFR) expect this to be present with a valid software version. These modules also have a dependency on the suspension module (NCS), which on the F430 was changed to take lat/long yaw (NYS) and steering angle (SAS) into account as additional data points.

2) Florence Architecture wake up signal: the instrument cluster in the F430 is the 'master' device and sends a wake up signal called the 'RCW' to boot everything attached to the B and C CAN network. Simply wiring up power to the F430 NFR as per the 360 will not set it running with ignition on.

3) The NFR is responsible for broadcasting vehicle speed signal to other modules. It does this in two ways:
i) Raw square wave signal 'VSO'. On the F430 this is sent to the instrument cluster (NQS) which forwards to any devices that require the raw output. During boot, the NFR communicates with the F430 instrument cluster to read in the wheel type & diameter configured in the proxy file, which is required to calculate real speed. Unfortunately the software mismatch - which is checked at boot time - between 360 dash and F430 NFR will not allow this dialogue to take place, and even if it did, the 360 cluster will not know how to respond to the Florence request message.
ii) Speed signal. This is the signal sent out over C-CAN for use by the engine management and other systems. The key consideration here is that the F430 instrument cluster is a gateway to the B-CAN network to which the Manettino (steering wheel node - NVO) is attached. At boot time there is a dialogue between NFR, NQS, and NVO to check software version and to both pass and read parameters, and if there is a mismatch of any sort the system is disabled with an SD3 only error message relating to the mismatch. Yes, it may be possible to get around the handshake by sniffing the network on an F430 and replicating it with a developer board, but the NVO also uses multiple 'Live parameters' from the NFR plus features the ability to initiate procedures such as steering angle calibration. Replicating every single exchange between it and the NFR is not realistic and although I'd like to think the NFR code is very, very robust, we are straying into untested operation with a critical safety system, and I don't recommend that at all.

4) The NFR sends warning messages to the NQS via C-CAN. The 360 will not understand the Florence error codes thus ABS and TC warning light functionality is lost - and no ESP warning lamp because it doesn't exist in the 360 cluster.

5) The F430 engine ECU (NCM) software was modified to enable driving torque adjustment via the C-CAN line, in addition to the regular ABS torque target - which the 360 has - an additional function of drag reduction during lift off i.e. engine braking control was added with ESP. Lack of this in the 360 NCS is likely a showstopper.

Although the F430 looks like a few changes to physical parts that are easily swapped to the 360 the reality is changes to its systems were actually pretty significant, and something like the ESP project would soon turn into a complex interface of various controls and messages which left a suboptimal, restricted system with increased risk of failure. This is not a slight on the 360 BTW - the same thing happened from F430 -> 458, and continues to do so with each new model.

A much better option would be a Bosch Motorsport ECU, which really is a pure ABS/ESP system. They are fully user-programmable modules and aren't tightly coupled like the OE versions. They were hideously expensive at launch given they are basically an unlocked OE type module, but that was a few years ago now so there are possibly used ones available at more reasonable cost.
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@ Mark, totally get what your talking about...

... However I have transplanted before many things from one car to another. Not in the slightest phased by any of this. Expect it actually and its kind of fun. If you've ever done any CAN bus hacking/development before you'll appreciate its pretty simplistic by modern PC standards and its very easy to simulate or translate inputs that don't exist to prevent disabling of systems. Once your developing software on an embedded development board nothing stops you really other than imagination and time...

Especially when you have a nice modern automotive development platform such as the Infineon TriCore AURIX TC275 which has MultiCAN+ module with 4 CAN nodes built in, a DSP, 48 ADC channels, triple cores, etc. and supplied with drivers for DS-ADC, SAR, GTM, GPT, CCU6, ASC, LIN, SPI, QSPI and even Ethernet. With a port of FreeRTOS you can pretty much do everything with it. It could even replace the ABS and Ignition computers and accept inputs from all of the sensors itself and still not break into a sweat.

These little bits of kit cost about 85 quid in an Arduino shield format (in UK);
http://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/processor-microcontroller-development-kits/1245257/?searchTerm=p-semis-l1-p2-0117_ie&relevancy-data=77633D4E4F4E4526

Perfectly man enough to do the job. As for Motorsport ABS, all that is, is a way for Bosch to totally rip you off (have you seen or ever enquired about how much they want for this!!). Its only their regular abs software with a nice fully configuration interface onto their data setting, which you can already hack anyway if your so inclined on a regular abs unit by reversing their firmware.

 

Haha. I am sure it will be fine.

Trev, it would be a fascinating project, and you of all the person to do it. I would be interested to follow your progress.

That is a nice bit of kit for £85!

 

Not sure if the owner is in here but I saw this gem when I dropped my 458 off for service in Kansas City. Beautiful car
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OMG... DID YOU GET THE CHASSIS NO?

I wonder if this is the the fabled "holy grail find", the genuine factory '1 of 1' Challenge Stradale Factory conversion to 6spd manual, that people talk about in whispered tones?

 

Mechanic there was telling how hard it was to custom fab that gated shifter into the car. So i assume its a conversion.

 

You have the license plate number, so you can get the VIN for the car via carfax I believe.

EDIT: here it is: ZFFDU57A240136834

Got it off of autocheck

 

yup... previously paddle shift and converted later.

https://www.challenge-stradale.com/136834.html