F12 vs 812

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairer, faster, and/or cooler?

 

I find the F12 designwise the much much better balanced model.

I would have wished much more elegance to the 812 design.

I therefore will buy no 812 and stay with my f12.

Regards
Johnny

 

Engine wise we all expect the 812 to be an upgrade of the F12b but to be honest I find the later already so good, powerful and evolving that I have great difficulty imagining what the new engine will be like.

Design wise any comparison of the two models is probably unfair due to the fact that I've only seen the 812 in photos and videos and never alive. However in general terms the F12b is a car that looks elegant and pretty contemplated from all the angles and the in my opinion the same doesn't apply to the 812. I can't get to terms with the aesthetics of the rear sections of the 812 and I'm quite convinced I won't change my mind even after I see the car.

 

Ferrari dealer told me yesterday that the Ferrari have said the 812 is 1/2 a second quicker a lap at Fiorano, than a TDF! So its going to be way quicker than an F12. If you can ever use the extra speed, I would say only on a track.

 

The reverse of what the 'official' lap times say.......

 

The 812 get's the faster, maybe handling awards. Loses in all other categories to the F12B. My opinion of course.

 

Easy :

Performance - superior, in all respects
Handling - likely superior 4WS and steering enhancements
Interior - apart from "leather" issue probably marginally better, better ICT, F12 is archaic
Depreciation - likely less, best pre-orders in history
Looks - subjective, I prefer as dislike the uterus on back of F12 but each to own of course, no Pininfarina a slight question mark

 

That crucial half a second or extra inch, it means all to us boys !!

 

I think performance differences are irrelevant, as both cars are already too powerful for anything you will encounter on a public road. And, I do not see either as dedicated track cars; although, both would certainly perform well on the occasional track day. Even on the track, only competition licensed drivers would have any hope of seeing minute differences between the two cars.

F12 is a Pininfarina design and 812 is a modified Pininfarina design by Ferrari design team. These cars, from a design perspective, are clearly similar.

I prefer the F12, because of the break-up in the front hood and the unique rear design. What I like about the 812 is that it reminds me of my 612.

 

IMHO:
Fairer: F12b
Faster: 812SF
Cooler: entirely subjective, I think many will say the new one is the coolest! For me, the elegance and what I consider to be a more timeless design of the F12b take the prize.

I think we need to see what we think of the 812 after several years. Then we can really know as we have that experience with the F12b.

I will borrow Scraggy's scale and put comments inside {}

Performance - superior, in all respects {No doubt there}

Handling - likely superior 4WS and steering enhancements {I agree it should be but I wonder how people will react to the 4WS?, electric power steering and the new performance helping systems such as Ferrari Peak Performance and Ferrari Poweroversteer? I read an article in Car (UK) where they quote Mr. Michael Hugo Letters (Ferrari's chief technology officer) as saying of these systems:"Our rear-wheel steering set-up is different to other car makers'. Normally you want a neutral or neutra-to-understeer balance. If a car is too neutral not he limit then it's fast but difficult to drive- fine for Set Vettel but a normal driver gets into difficulty. Our concept was to make the set-up neutral and to compensate for the loss of drivability with the rear-wheel steering. If you go to the limit of the car, we vary the torque of the steering so that the driver is feeling through the steering that he is getting near the limit. The system does not actually steer, but it delivers a change in the level of resistance to communicate the limit. If you go over the limit, we invite counter-steering with Ferrari Power Oversteer, again by using the torque of the steering motor to promote counter-steering. This is why we are proud of this system. This technology does not change our philosophy, which is that the control system doesn't improve the performance of the car; it improves the performance of the pilot." I think this last sentence is really important to understanding what Ferrari has been doing with their technology. It sounds brilliant. But I also think we should see how people react to it.}

Interior - apart from "leather" issue probably marginally better, better ICT, F12 is archaic {I agree but from the pictures I think the overall design motif is busier, more broken up, and just simply less elegant. I have a hard time getting over the fact that the line on the center of the dash does not line up with the center of the HVAC instruments and it also does not line up with the center of the car.}

Depreciation - likely less, best pre-orders in history {Again, hard to know. Surely a promising start. But what happens if you get wild premiums? I can see the argument now: near F12tdf performance in a more modern and easier to live with package! If F12tdf trades for $1m? Why not this for $650k (2x) What a bargain!.. If that happens you have a lot of room to fall down and that can cause the fall to be accelerated with "a lot" (relatively) of people looking to exit before they get burned too badly... My guess is the depreciation will be around where F12b is. Hopefully there won't be wild swings for those of us who like to own these cars.}

Looks {I would have called this "exterior" since you already have "interior"} - subjective, I prefer as dislike the uterus on back of F12 but each to own of course, no Pininfarina a slight question mark {I also did not immediately appreciate the F12b's rear end and also the F1 inspired fog light that some people crudely thought looked like a cell phone. But over time, and in the right color, its something I've grown to really appreciate. I think it works on the F12b very well. And so its possible it will be the same for the 812. I think the no PF is an issue for those of us who are real enthusiasts (or you might even say "geeks" about such things)- but for most of their target audience I don't think this will be a big deal. Has it affected the 458 Speciale? The LaFerrari? No. It does bother me though! I also just don't love the whole exterior, I find it, like the interior, to be less elegant and not as cohesive as the F12b. There are some elements that are very interesting, I like how they handled the front air intake(s) and how the front bumper seems a bit more shark nose than the F12b. Aside from the rear, which we have talked about many times and is an issue for me, I just can't get my head around the "C-Pillar" area where, when I view a side or ¾ or ¼ profile, it just looks like they tacked on an entirely different body kit to the F12. But, I am frequently slow to appreciate styling changes. And they have some world class people there at the Ferrari Design Studio, and I have not yet seen the car in person. Its very possible I will change my mind at some point, but for now, I'm not in love with it.}

 

Nice considered piece. Let's not overlook that if it is not better in most aspects Ferrari have done a poor job ! Which V 12 since Daytona has been "worse", maybe 575 pre FHP, otherwise progression each time. Be unusual if that was not the case, emotionally of course different question.....like 488/458 maybe, move from N/A clouds that transition.

 

612 - a car more and more appreciated with age, looks fresher now than 2004 !

 

It should be no surprise that the 812 drives better, is faster, handles better etc. That's just normal. In the end, it won't be what distinguishes these models once they are both 'old timers'. The appearance and the personality of the car will be much more telling in that regard.

Personally I much prefer the look of the 812. It is busier, no doubt. There seem to be plenty who think the reverse though, and when it's well argued (and not just a partisan view, or an unusually strong opinion from someone who hasn't seen the new car), that seems to be a perfectly reasonable view. Call it 50/50.

That leaves 'personality'. The F12 is powerful and quite lairy to drive, it is not easy to get a really decent lap time out of it; by that I mean close to its potential. You have to be very skilled and very committed. It has an extrovert, but not entirely accessible, personality but will relax when needed. It is not quite as full of pace as 730bhp would suggest since it is so easy to waste the power.

We don't know what the 812 is like; it has more power, really quite a lot more, but it also has more tech. Will it feel organic enough? Will the 812 add just the right amount of control to the undoubted power it has? Or will it get a bit too 'serious' with all that aero and gadgetry?

In the end, this is probably what will determine whether it is ultimately a better car than the F12 and we won't know for many years - though I highly doubt it will approach the TDF using my criteria. In the meantime, and viewed simply as a modern performance car, I don't have any doubt it will be better than the F12.

 

Through their history and model after model Ferrari has always managed to make cars that have more power, go faster and give better driving experiences than their predecessors. However these improved features just on their own, were never a guarantee that a new model became historically more successful than it’s predecessor and in the end aesthetics were the determining factor which made the difference. Someone once said and I completely agree that “A truly beautiful car is one that is balanced, one that enjoys a harmonious play between it’s shape, detailing and mechanical underpinning, one that feels as good at the wheel, or to ride in, as it does to look at…….”. Because we all have our personal taste and we tend to look at cars in different manners, using the above criteria I consider the F12 and the F12TDF in the category of a truly beautiful cars and the 812 not so much. I know there are others who think exactly the opposite way and I completely respect their evaluation.

 

If the info you were given about the Fiorano lap times is correct, then the 812 sits between the LaFerrari and the TDF.

That is a seriously fast complete package. In order to achieve this one needs not just power and torque, but handling balance, aero, and braking.

Let's not forget about the fact that the 812 is wearing the latest Michelin pilot sport 4s. I don't know if that tire was chosen for the lap vs a sport cup tire.

 

I know it's a meaningless half a second, but why should a dealer know a different lap,time from what Ferrari maintain and publish. Also, unless a very trick tyre, it wouldn't really make sense to be quicker than a Tdf, 120kg lighter.

Regardless, they are both very quick cars and no doubt the 812 will be easier to get the lap time out of

 

We, or rather I, must remind myself not to get too foolish in such a vehicle.

 

neither. the f12 looks like a Z06, and the 812 looks like a weird one-off of the f12 custom ordered by some eccentric japanese collector.

for that money, just give me an aventador.

 

Ferrari is like a beautiful woman. If you look back in history you would agree that the most basic charactertic of a beautiful woman is fertility. Genius I say on the rear end of the F12B.

 

812 will drive better but I dont like the double c pillar look. Resembles 308 gt4 which is an ugly ferrari. Huracan has it too which I dont like either.

 

IMO this post says it all...perfectly stated and I agree 100%.

 

Agree on the TDF not the F12 - never liked its rear and it's interior was ok at best from my point of view.

 

+1

Not at all a fan of the new design.

 

I currently prefer the F12 design which incidentally i liked from the very first time i saw it in Geneva in 2012. It made my heart race and gave me that 'WANT IT' feeling.

I was very unsure about the 812 at first but gradually I am starting to appreciate it. It looked better at Geneva than the press pics. However there is no doubt in my mind that despite the tech improvements that the 812 is an F12 'facelift' and not as cohesive a design as the F12b. The body is not a new design in my opinion and you can see it.

I am also thinking it will look better in dark metallic colours whereas I think the F12b looks better in mid to lighter colours as they show off the lines better. Maybe i think this because the 812 just doesn't have the curvaceous F12 lines like the bonnet scoops and aerobridge.

I'm still waiting to see a grey, blue or black metallic (gloss) 812 to decide whether i really like it or not. Shouldn't be long now....

 

Talk of the devil!

Thanks to Nelsonc275

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