The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Dear Rob, where to put the Ferrari 512s with a real engine and gearbox, original spare parts and a frame which lost its ID tag and now has a xxxxR number.
Put it in Vintage or replica?

 

I think he said original spare parts "and a frame", of which the hypothetical only actual known provenance is that it was created for the construction of a replica, and documented as being offered for sale as a replica by the person who commissioned the replica, despite claims otherwise.

 

What if owner who commissioned/identified chassis as not original then sells it as a replica and the new owner who bought it as a replica claims it's not a replica but a genuine chassis?

 

Piper has always said it's a replica and has been very emphatic about this fact.

 

Both him and his wife told me personally on the telephone relatively recently. I posted about it in this thread.

 

See here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144599292-post7741.html

 

No, but even Mr Glickenhaus accepts that at the time of sale David Piper described the car as a replica and that is what Mr Glickenhaus agreed to buy and bought.

 

In law he who alleges must prove: This car has never been proved to be the genuine 0846 and by your decision to keep this car in the vintage section and not the replica section you could actually be accused of being party to what Mr Glickenhaus is saying is actually true, in accordance with FerrariChat house rules.

 

Surely, until Ferrari as the originator of 0846 confirms the car Jim owns is the one it built then regardless of what Jim says, his car remains as it was sold to him, i.e a replica until that time?

Was not that why the recreations section was introduced, a place to contain such cars which did not have 100% proof of provenance? guilty until proven innocent in a way

 

From the FerrariChat subforum definitions/rules: "However, discussion of replicas that are not based on an original Ferrari chassis belongs in the General Automotive Discussion forum."

See here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/recreations-non-period-rebodies/534444-subforum-definitions-rules.html

Therefore the correct section for Glickenhaus DP0003 is General Automotive Discussion.
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Rob - your logic isn't compelling here. David would have every reason to state the truth financially and of course would be for sure the only one that would really know.

I personally being a very logical person, and with a law degree, would move it.

 

Ferrari have never said my project is not an F40 either, it does not therefore make it one as a result of their silence on the matter.

The simple fact is that if there was even a remote chance Ferrari would sanction Jims car as the original 0846 then it would have passed through the doors of Classiche a long time ago, and this thread would have died a death many years past.

Even with Jims apparent dislike of the factory, the easiest option to gain approval of the masses for his example as he clearly seeks, would have been to bite the bullet and seek their approval rather than going around the houses for years on end doing everything but that.

Your website, your choice at the end of the day, it does seem unusual that it requires Jim sanction to move the thread though in your eyes even when he did not actually start it.

 

But that's where your logic is flawed; the burden of proof goes the opposite way. If he doesn't prove it's the real thing (with a letter from Ferrari) then it should be assumed it's a replica. Don't you think he has asked? Especially when the seller says it wasn't AND Ferrari said the VIN no longer exits.

I am confused.

 

I agree with this statement Rob. But the logic is wrong. If we all agree that just because someone says something, it doesn't make it true, then we must go back to the only facts that are known. Therefore, we go back to the beginning of the saga where:

A replica P-4 was built using SN DP003
This replica P-4 was raced and shown multiple times over the years as DP003
The builder of the replica sold the car after many years of establishing its heritage
The new owner purchased DP003 as a replica.

Now we pick up from the statement that "just because someone says something, doesn't make it true." You are 100% correct in making this statement. So just because Jim says it is 0846 does not make it true, and the burden to prove that the facts that have been known and established for many years are not correct, is up to him to prove. Unfortunately, it is hard to establish this new narrative of it being 0846, and not the replica as established by the builder for many years, as the period photos completely debunk and refute all of the stuff "that Jim says"

So the real logic of this is plainly clear to see. Just because Jim says it is 0846 does not make it true.

 

I actually agree with Rob in regards to this.

There is no doubt all parties are watching this.

If they could prove any valid arguement, they would.

I think everyone with a dog in the hunt have better things to do, so why should Rob second guess that?

Regardless, there is so much information that leads in so many directions, it is very hard to discern. Until this car is offered for sale, which I doubt it ever will be, no one has a legitemate arguement about false advertising. Ferrari is the only one to squash this at this point and they haven't. That has to say something.

Shawn