Not sure where your confusion lies. Ferrari dealers and knowledgeable customers are well versed in the Ferrari development plan for the flagship. The 'replacement' is a specific term for the new model that comes after the 'refresh' (812) and all the LEs. Mid-life refreshes are usually referred to as an evolution by definition. The engine, for instance, is an evolution but not the brakes or the 4WS as both were on the LE. The bodywork is a massive fail that buyers must deal with hoping that the performance or end-of-the-line gamble might justify the expense. However, in the end, most are being bought to hedge and then flip. Best.
Hi Technom 3 Be good to hear your rationale here.... 488GTB is spiritual successor to 308 GTB 288GTO was a modified 308 GTB v8 Twin turbo. If ever there was a right time to use the badge surely it's now? Not sure where the shame is in that? Regards Michael Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
If a 488 GTB got a modification on a level like the 288 GTO got vs a 308 GTB then we talk more about a LaFerrari successor than a track modificated 488 GTB...
no its not necessary to make as many changes on 488 as there was on 308. 308 was already long in the tooth with subpar performance and need drastic changes such as engine direction to make it work. 488 is already near perfect and just needs tuning to make it more sport than gt. its a sign of the times
Hi Michael, My strong language concerning the naming of the car is because a 488 speciale (just using that as a descriptive word) is no where near special enough. For those that think the 288 was SIMPLY a 308 twin turbo'ed... they need to pick up a book and read about how special a 288 is and was. First and foremost the 288 GTO was a homolgation special. the 488 GTO will not be... which is what the O stands for... So just in the name alone we are already off on the wrong foot. Now my fundemental problem with it... the 488 speciale will not be specail enough like the 288 was to the 308. The 288 had a completely new frame. The 288 had completely different construction. 308s were steel and 288s were glass, kevlar and carbon fiber... the firewall had a mixture of nomex kevlar and carbon if I remember correctly. The suspension was completely differnt The brakes were completely different The car had single lug wheels The car had a 4.2 inch longer wheel base They turned the motor from horizontal to longitudinal Obviously a different engine and a different transmission. My point is that the 288 GTO is not a supped up 308 and it was done for a racing purpose not for fanyboy parking lot pimping and over MSRP gouging The 250 GTO was based on the swb yet got an entire new body (more aerodynamic) a 5 speed transmission and different brakes... again... all for winning at racing. These were not hop ups of the entry level ferrari. They were genuine supercars that stood on their own 4 wheels. So you may be scratching your head and wondering what I think of the 599 GTO. I love it. I hate the name... but at least its a proper 12 (not that that last bit matters to my argument... infact its the acknowledged chink in mthe armor of my argument. The 250 GTO is my favorite object on the planet (a tie with the B-17) and to hear that pissed off 12 in the 599 GTO and the fact that they made the car difficult to drive softened my disdain for the name.) So until it becomes a homolgation special... it shouldn't have the GTO name. I would let it slide IF... It had a dramtically different body but still on the same chassis... or even jusn an all carbon body. More gears in the gearbox Single lug a change in powerplant in some way... more or less turbos... an added electric motor (blasphemy in my opinion) more or less cylinders... or an EXTREMELY up'd horsepower. like an extra 150 hp or something NUTS. Otherwsie... call it a stradale a speciale a corsa a... ANYTHING ELSE... other than GTO Yes I am treating the GTO as holy. Slapping it on the ass of a 488 because it has turbos is blasphemy
BUT Ferrari races the 488 in IMSA/WEC. They could make the 488 GTO and then homologate the changes to be used in there race cars. They could REALLY use the extra development to fight off the Ford GT and the mid engine Porsche 911 RSR. I defiantly think the 488 is more then special enough to be upgraded to GTO status as it ticks off all the boxes to be a spiritual successor to the legendary 288 GTO.........but only if Ferrari does it right and go all out and shock the automotive world. Just as they did with the 308 when it evolved into the 288 GTO
I appreciate your point of view... but disagree lol. Yes ferrari does race but it is homolgized already... also... those classes are "dampened" and further development would just be met with either more weight or air restrictors. Ferrari did a good job already fending off the GT I don't mean this mean spiritedly... but I don't know how you could see the 488 as special enough. The cars wheelbase wont change. its brakes likely wont change... its engine wont change other than maybe a little more boost and a sport exhaust. There will be no power adder... no additional gears... nothing to make it different. Honestly a 360 CS is likely more speicalized than the 458 and the 488 is going to be. GTO means homoligation... nothing is being homologated. There are no significant upgrades or changes. It is an uprated 488. Add a little power... pull out the carpets... make a larger lip spoiler... charge more money limit the production... and then build more than you say you were going to... you know standard ferrari practice for he last 15 plus years lol It doesn't mean the car isn't awesome. It doesn't mean the 488 isn't awesome. Its just not awesome enough to wear the GTO badge.
I appreciate your point of view as well........but........does that mean the F12 tdf is a undeserving of its name since it didn't race in the Tour De France??
To move up in the point system, get a shot at the VS which will be the most valued LE of the lot, or consign back for a small profit or at least break even. The usual for a non-LE $400K car bought new.
From a technological point of view, the 288GTO had nothing to do with the 308! Because of the homologation error of Ferrari the 288GTO was the "unplanned founder" of the Ferrari hypercar product line. Thanks to the 288GTO Ferrari has recognized that a mid/rear engine hypercar product line works, the real successors are F40/F50/Enzo/LaF. But with the 599GTO Ferrari has broken this line. Therefore, today you can sell also a Ferrari leather case as GTO, who cares.
GTO is a name with the utmost heritage.....except, when they did the 599 GTO they already changed its meaning and value. Fair enough, it belongs to Ferrari so it's up to them how they use it. But the time has come and gone where the name is synonymous with racing homologation. 488 GTO (although I tend to agree that won't be the name) is a reasonable enough name for a successor to the 288 GTO, given that 599 GTO sort of followed the 250 GTO formula excepting the point I made above. Even if it is not as low volume as the 288, why does that matter? Using the name for cars that represent something the predecessor did not is already an established pattern. The basics will still be there - hardcore turbo V8, lightweight, looks similar to the cooking version but beefed up, quantum shift in feel and performance etc.
I completely disagree with Solid State's earlier view that the 812 is a 'refresh' not a completely new model. The only thing that is similar is the frame of the car. Brands do this all the time for models no-one disputes being 'all-new', from Renault to Range Rover, Ford to Ferrari. The changes are; the engine (about 90%), the styling, the aerodynamics, the chassis, the added technology, the interior. It is as new a car as the 599 to the F12. Using a version of the previous frame keeps some of the dimensions familiar, which is not the case with 599 to F12, but that is not enough to support the view this is a refresh only. Considered as a whole car, the 812 is easily as big a departure from the F12 as the F12 was from the 599. F12's basic formula was; take 599, reduce size, add power, change to DCT, improve handling. 812 takes F12 and keeps the size similar but adds power, improves handling, add rws, add EPAS, significantly increase aero. The exterior and interior are vastly altered between the F12 and 812. Whereas on a good example of a refresh, such as 550 to 575, the exterior shape and interior design are very similar. The engineers I know consider 'the car' to be its powertrain and chassis - whatever goes on top of that is almost akin to marketing unless it assists with the car's functionality (aerodynamics). Whereas customers unsurprisingly place a much greater emphasis on the bit they sit in and look at. 812 easily reaches and passes the definition for a completely new car IMO. It's as different as a 720 and 650 for example, and few would say the 720 is not a new model.
Actually even the 288 GTO was already a change in meaning, the common point between the 250 GTO and the 288 GTO being only the racing intention (which was definitely lost with the 599 GTO). The 288 GTO was designed as the homologation model for a racing car that was never developped due to the Group-B being terminated, whereas the 250 GTO was supposed to be (and accepted as, thanks to some stretching of the CSI rules from the time) the racing car derived from the 250 GT (the 250 GT had the required production number for the homologation, and the GTO had not). The 250 GTO was a racing car, whereas the production 288 GTO was not (just like the road versions of the Group-B rally cars, which were produced to 200 examples to satisfy homologation, whereas the real rally cars were different cars specifically produced).
Well... slightly. Not all tour de frances were raced there... and the car was given the name or coined at a later point. When the car came out it was not called a TDF. Also it was not a homolgation car and it was a hopped up version of a 250.... which is what the f12 tdf is. So in spirit... the f12 tdf plays along the same lines. Now listen... I know im using wacky words like "in spirit" and I know im probably looking into all of this way too much... but if you know your ferrari history and you really know your ferrari cars of yore... people will realize what fits and what doesn't. Those that are newer and don't have the back ground will go... hmm... 488... 288 mid engine... mid engine... turbo v8... turbo v8 fast as hell... fast as hell... =GTO To me if I had to categorize the people who say 488 gto is acceptable... id say they probably get all there info from Twitter and know about 140 characters about everything... and know nothing of real substance about anything. I will probably regret that broad swipe of a brush. LOL
LukeyLikey - every evolution you speak of in the 812 has been the definition of a mid life refresh. The F12 was the replacement for the 599, the F12 TDF is the LE version of the F12, the 812 is the mid-life refresh of the F12 line. All refreshes target having updated body panels, interior, brakes, software, etc. and at least one new innovation. When you launch a new platform after the refresh it is marketed as a replacement. Not my definition, it's just Ferrari's own development plan that you seem to be ignoring. You can call it an all new replacement if you want to. I look at the 812 and I see an ugly, heavier, reprogrammed version of the F12 TDF. The replacement comes later after the final LEs.
So basically there will never be a "GTO" again since the days of making a car for production so it can be fully raced are over?? Would you consider the new Ford GT a homologation car that had Ferrari done the same trick that Ford did, they could deem it a GTO. Or is the street Ford GT and the IMSA/WEC Ford GT too different to be considered? as far as I'm considered, if the 599 can be a GTO then the 488 has even more right to be a GTO since it literally races and any changes "could potentially" be homologated and used as long as they fall within the rules. They will call it a GTO........they just have too. Calling it anything else would be a waste considering how closely related it is with the original 288 GTO HURRY UP FERRARI, THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME!!
