Why a Stick Shift Defines the Driver

Agreed. I've driven a Testarossa a few times and loved it. The extra challenge was pure pleasure. The auto mode enthusiasts will be able to program an address on a computer soon and they will totally kick your ass to the location......lol.

 

I learned how to trail brake from Skippy at T2 of Laguna. You come in all full throttle, and at the very last second before you are sure you are going to die, you heel/toe two downshifts while braking hard and rotating the car (T2 is a double apex). You keep braking and downshifting until you float to the mid point of the turn where you then pour on the gas. Done correctly, it is a thing of beauty. Done by me, it was pretty damn ugly.

On a dct, you have to use your left foot to brake, while staying on the gas with your right. That's how the F1 guys do it. In the Cayman, I never drove it hard enough to get there. However, left foot braking while on the gas seemed to confuse the car. I suspect it is all in the programming.



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48 here and while I like Sticks in my 2 Old Corvettes I wanted F1 all the way in my 430

 

No he didn't. If you drove a Ferrari F430 Scuderia or 458 or 488 you would feel different about the paddle shifter. And don't fool yourself. Nobody can handle the amount of power to weight ratio many newer super cars have these days and have a 3 pedal. Besides most newer transmissions have 7 gears or more and thus the DCT type transmissions. Who on earth wants the same car but only have 6 gears.

And please don't anybody bring up the 7 speed 3 pedal. Complete fail. The gates are so narrow you can't even find the right gear with confidence.

I think you're the same poster who said firing a gun is better than clicking a mouse. Well if clicking the mouse allows you to fire more shots quicker...well.

Also, putting in a 6 speed 3 pedal in today's high performance cars is like using an old DVD player to watch movies on your 4K 1080p HD TV. What a waste.

I don't have anything against 3 pedal cars so long as they were engineered and built for that specific car. This car would then most likely have been built pre-2005. 3 pedal cars are indeed fun. Can never figure out why the 3 pedal snobs can't simply just buy an older gen car to satisfy their needs.

 

Basically you just summed up why I'm unlikely to buy a newer Ferrari. Driving a race car on the streets is no fun. What's the point? You don't need that expensive of a car to impress strippers.


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PDK (and other DCTs by name) doesn't allow you to balance with the throttle if you're braking - it simply cuts the throttle inputs. Because this was something I'd experienced in a few other cars when trying to have a little fun, it was one of the first things I tested when I first test-drove a Cayman, figuring that Porsche, of all manufacturers save Ferrari, wouldn't stick the nanny in there. Even in Sport mode, it's there. I think it's to save warranty claims on rotors or pads of beiber/kartrashian-type idiots who ride around with their foot on the brake pedal.
I was told that the Manual doesn't have that "feature", and it doesn't seem to.

 

Good. At least you realize and admit that you are not able to handle a 570 hp and above car which only weighs around 3,400 lbs with a 3 pedal in it with only 6 gears. Hopefully others obsessed with the 3 pedal will see the light also.

And driving the latest and greatest car which was built to its max performance capabilility at the time technology and gov regs allow is always fun to drive on the street. It was built for the street so is consumers can enjoy them. This is why we have gone from 360 F430 458 488.

Seriously. If you want a 3 pedal car get a lower model Porsche. Their 6 speed 3 pedal is probably the best. Or stick with an older Ferrari.

I have an F430 F1 and a BMW E46 M3 3 pedal. Both are fun to drive.

 

I wonder if it work if you turned the traction control of? Either way, the couple of times I had the Cayman on the track, it cornered like on rails. I never went balls out, but it would take a lot for the rear to kick out. It just turned in and went.

BTW, I never used the paddles. You can downshift with the throttle.

BTW2, nobody cares to challenge my buddy's comment about a Scud? He said the hardest part was not lifting before turning in.


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Sorry....you lost me at " the gates are so narrow...you can't find them with confidence"

Now, I know you're missing the whole point.
What you're arguing is technology equals fun. I agree with everything you've said from a technical point of view and agree. Today's cars are a closed loop technical system where the a manual shift actually hampers the performance. I get it.

But....it's no fun. I have my 585hp paddle shift Murcielago Roadster sitting right next to my gated shift 91 Testarossa. The Murcielago does everything faster, better and while antiquated from a technological point of view, can still shift faster and better than I ever could.
My Testarossa is slow, low powered and honestly a dog....but damn is it engaging! This is one of the last if not the last Enzo era cars where he said....if you can't handle it, go buy something else.
I prefer to be engaged in my driving....I find it exhilarating.
...and like I said, the 700 hp Aventador Roadster was a technical tour de force....but boring.

Shamile

Freeze. . . Miami Vice!

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I could handle it, but it wouldn't be any fun. There comes a point where driving that fast on the street is irresponsible. On the track is something else, but there are too many uncontrollable variables on the street. Like coming around a blind corner on a country road only to discover two bicycles riding side-by-side with no shoulder and a car coming at you in the other lane. Fortunately I was only doing 65 in my Maranello. But I could have easily been doing 105.

Serious question: how many 458 or 488 owners do you think have ever driven their car at say 75% of their capacity? My guess is the percentage is in the single digits.

PS Ask Rob Lay if I have ever driven a Ferrari fast on the street. Out of respect for Rob, I put both hands on the wheel. Ah, the thangs I used to do, but dont do no mo.


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If you want a modern Ferrari with big HP stiff chassis, all aluminum and a manual you are out of luck, unless you want to pay $40k premium over F1 F430s, face it a 458 or 488 is light years ahead in power, design, looks, performance than a F430.

Thats the issue, you are stuck with a old Ferrari if you want a manual. Those are probably right the average Ferrari driver couldn't handle a manual 488, would crash it in a few hours of getting it, not me though I have had the best lawyer killer cars motorcycles,( Hayabusa chipped) out there and they were modded more than double the HP when new such as my 77 930, never had a problem and drove them flat out every chance I could.

I have driven the E Gears and F1s hated them.

The selection of manuals is only gonna get worse as they age, the cars will be more tired less reliable to drive fast, we are forced to get F1s in the future like it or not.

 

Lol
Back when the choke was a knob on the dash, knowing how far to pull it out to get the engine started on the first try.
THAT is a skill set few people have today.

 

Simple for me .....
Traffic - automatic
Back roads - The stick
I see a lot of dealers/people that list their car as MANUAL, and in the picture no clutch pedal. So this must be a grey area ?
I seriously don't need more than 400 hp for the street, I like to keep a low profile

 

See the light? Nonsense.

McLaren F1 627hp

Carrera GT 605hp

Ford GT 550hp

Dodge viper 645hp

Corvette Z06 650hp

Noble M600 660hp

Pagani Zonda F 650hp

Gallardo LP550-2 550hp


I could spend all day making this list.

Could also mention the countless amount of modified cars with 1000+hp and manual transmission.

Paddle shift is -not- a necessity.

There are endless amounts of awesome lightweight high horsepower manual transmission vehicles and they aren't all just put up on jackstands because they are useless.


I do however agree that there becomes a point in power to weight ratio that when exceeded can make a vehicle less enjoyable in many street driving situations but this doesn't have anything to do with the transmission.

 

And you call yourself an enthusiast?

I love a good manual transmission. However, at a certain point, you are less in control (and hence less engaged) with a manual than with an f1 transmission. Once you cross the 450-500hp mark in a 3000lbs vehicle with 6 or more gears (and I'm not counting the cars that have massive overdrives for 6 and 7, that's basically a 5 speed), you spend more time with one hand on the wheel than is ideal for keeping the car in control and on the limit, so it becomes less fun (for me) as you're less connected and in-tune with the car. On the street it doesn't much matter as I don't ever push to the limit there. The stick is fun but you're not really shifting all that much anyway. On track I'll take a good manual over a stick until you start to get into high hp with a lot of gears. If it's a 4 speed, fine, give me a thousand hp as you're not shifting much, but a 7 speed (where you actually use them) in a 600hp/3000lbs vehicle you're never going to have 2 hands on the wheel if it's a stick, which means unless you're a Senna type, you're not going to be fully in control of the vehicle. And even if you're a Senna type, you'll go faster and be more in control (which is what's more fun for me) with an f1.

If you don't want a race car on the street, you don't want a Ferrari, that's what they've pretty much always been with exception of the 2+2's. I think a Cali would be good with a stick, but nobody that actually bought one agreed with me and wanted them so they stopped making them.

What I actually dislike is the auto rev match on a manual. It takes away pretty much all of the skill of driving a manual to where you might as well have an f1 anyway and keep both hands on the wheel. And, given almost all manuals have auto rev match now (even my wife's new Mini S has it), it's not worth it for me. It's pulling a lever vs. pulling a paddle. No different to an f1 other than when taking off, really, and you're less in control because you have to take your hands off the wheel. Stupid, imo.

 

Pete, I don't think there are any 7 speed manuals that don't use 7th for just a cruising gear. (even many 6 speed cars, 6th is to tall for top speed)

So if we're back to 6 speed still seems manageable (to me) on track as generally the higher horsepower cars have taller overall gearing so shifting isn't as frenzied as say an F355 with stock gearing and 500hp would be.

Agreed on the auto rev match manuals. Hate it!

 

Of course not necessary. To really get the most out of them on track an f1 would almost universally be better, but not necessary. For me, the real fun is getting the most out of them on track. However, most of those didn't/don't come with a good f1 transmission (except the Zonda and Gallardo) so it's an impossible comparison to make and has little bearing on the discussion - the only way they can be driven is with a manual and an f1 could be immeasurably better, we have no way of knowing (other than the fact that the Viper, Z06, Ford GT and Gallardo racing versions all have sequentials, so they are at least objectively better).

I think I'd rather the f1 in the Zonda but not sure on the Gallardo. I'd have to drive both versions to see, that is at the crossover point where manual might take too much control away on track.

 

I agree Pete that on track F1 would be better/faster in a direct comparison on the same car.

Still, when you have a new manual trans Camaro that's faster around a track than a 488, how much of a crutch is it.

All I'm saying is it's not -necessary- to have an F1 box at nearly any power/weight ratio, even if an F1 version is faster and easier to manage on track.

 

Watching videos of say a LaFerrari on track, there's a TON of shifting going on. That's not to say it wouldn't also be fun with a manual, but you couldn't push it like you can with the f1. I think there's a cutoff, and a vette where the top 2 gears don't get used and it has a very wide torque band, sure a manual is probably just as fun and can be pushed just as hard. But in a 458 where you're using 2-6 on a decent track and it's higher revving, narrower power band, probably not as much fun (for me). It's subjective of course, but even pushing my 355 hard I can feel myself sacrificing braking while keeping the rear planted and the fronts on edge of lockup while dropping a couple of gears. It's still more fun than an f1, but it's getting close to where it's a sacrifice in car control to do so. Another 100hp and, like you said, it'll be too frenetic as you'll be dropping another gear in braking zones and you'll be sacrificing too much with one hand on the wheel trying to keep the brakes on threshold while blipping the throttle to keep the rear behind you. It'll probably be awesome on the one or two laps you get it perfectly correct.

 

I agree completely but would still rather track this-



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYYA2jE3Ze0[/ame]

 

Jeez this is a dumb ass question.

Might as well start an argument over what color is the best (not ferrari... just color)

Facts:

Manuals are known to be fun to drive and are more "involved"

F1 style trans and even GMs new 10 speed are faster around a track. Period end of story

So... after that its personal preference

Some car guys enjoy the drive. These guys are probably 355 guys and carrera gt fans... they don't care how fast it is its just a sum of all of the sense that create the experience.

For some... having the fastest most precise tool in there hands is the "best" So having a PDK or F1 or DCT etc... is like having a scalpel. The manual transmission is a machette.

Now here is my heavily weighted drama inducing opinion:

All of those "real" car guys talking about 6 speeds are for true enthusiasts... Get over yourself. Spend your money your way... stop passing judgment. You might as well argue over camaros vs mustangs... its dumb. Also you are likely "new" or "newer" to this whole car thing... you probably bought an aircooled porsche... you know during the run up and made a couple of bucks and fell in love with cars yada yada yada... truth be told... they next little money maker you will on to and fall in love with that and be just as hard headed. Your delusion is not a fact... it is YOUR reality.

For all of those who talk about experience and amazing cars and all of this other crap a 3 pedal car gives you. Please don't tell me how awesome your 430 is with a 6 speed. The honest truth is... its not that good. Its not as good as many many many many many other manual transmission cars out there. In fact... it pretty much sucks compared to other cars.

Those talking about real driving experience etc... and how a 6 speed does that... please tell me how engaging it is to drive a manual trans chevy aveo. Also please tell me you have one of the following in the garage:

Dodge Viper
Ford GT
Scion FRS
Mazda Miata
CGT
F40
F50
Boxster Spyder in a manual
Lotus Elise
or best yet a Lotus/Caterham Super 7

IF you have any of those or maybe a couple others... then please go on about driving experience...

Otherwise continue this fight over... Green is better... no blue is better... no yellow is better...

 

Wouldn't say that exactly. Pobst is faster with a manual-

How Did A Manual Chevy Camaro ZL1 Beat The 10-Speed Automatic Version?

I would think if the 10 speed was superior they would offer it on the 1LE but their track version of the Camaro is only offered with 6 speed manual.

And yes, it is all about personal preference. I appreciate the technology of the F1 transmissions and have nothing against them at all.

Would definitely say in most cases in the same car they would be faster around a track.

The only point I'm countering is that new cars are a mismatch for a manual gearbox or they would be impossible to drive with a manual trans.

 

1st off I want to say... I totally appreciate your post. its nice when people back things up with links.

Having a 17 ZL1 I was eagerly anticipating the car and watched and read as much as I could about it...

Awesome car... and now with 75 miles on it... its time for it to go.

Now in response to your post...


What car do you think you would be faster in at a track? (keep in mind you could be some amazing race car driver and I have no idea)

I know I am a well above average driver... but I still think at least for the first half of the day... I would be faster in the auto.

I don't think you or I could even get close to Randys time. Also, I think if he said go get my time... I know id grab the keys to the automatic for the time. Now if I was going out to just have fun and time didnt matter... id consider the manual

Everyone has to keep in mine especially on the ZL1... its 650hp and 650 ft lbs of torque. The chassis is great... but its still 650hp that thing will eat your lunch

 

The shop I work for has a new ZL1 with the 10 speed auto. And as well as it works, I'm not sure what I would be faster in. (I'm certainly no pro driver). Faster shifting, both hands on the wheel but will it do what I want it to? In auto mode probably not and in manual mode when "shift denied" comes up on the display my blood pressure doubles.

Even if I was faster in the auto I would still want to own the manual, to your example because I'm the kind of person that desires that experience more than the fastest lap times.

I agree that most including myself could not get close to Randy's times in either car. So many things more important (especially driver) than the trans when talking about a fast lap time.

 

I squirt away from stop signs all the time, and after shifting out of 1st gear, I drop it into 6th gear. 1st gear has taken me from 0 to the speed I am allowed to go, so why touch any intermediate gear?

Betcha can't do that in a 458 !