Max Verstappen

...unless it was Massa and then several here would say it was his fault and he sucks....

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/f1/191171-massa-sucks-thread-%2A-course-there-spoilers%2A.html

....in most of the nearly 3400 posts....

 

A talented, young driver. However, I think someone's going to put him in a gravel trap (or worse) on purpose at some point. He fights hard, which I respect, and that will ruffle feathers, but the criticism of his aggressive driving/judgment is also, I think, warranted. And, other drivers could take matters into their own control, once they've had enough of the antics.

If he was driving in NASCRAP, at least a few drivers would already have not only put him into the wall but also sought him out and taken a swing at him in the paddock.

CW

 

Yes I agree that he is an aggressive, I'd be silly not to agree with that. However, so far I can think of 2 incidents that caused another driver to either retire or go in for repairs and that's Kimi at spa 2016 and Ricciardo this weekend. In 2.5 seasons, I've seen a lot worse than that...

For himself it's worked more often than not, his aggressive opening lap has gained him plenty of positions. I can barely call Barcelona this year his fault, I think a lot of drivers would've gone for that move round the outside, it was a calculated risk and he was unlucky that Bottas hit Kimi, taking him with them...

IMO there are a lot more drivers causing havoc but since that mostly happens at the back, we don't really see/here about it. Frankly, that part of the grid we don't really care about as much, those drivers don't get nearly the amount of coverage and a mere shoulder shuck if we see a penalty handed out. Those incidents barely get discussed either. Because he's at the pointy end, and a much talked about driver + his young age that divided many already, it does get discussed a lot more.

FWIW, the reason he is talked about loads is because he does pull of some stunning moves more often than not, we rarely see him take a driver off in an attempt to overtake, or even damage. He's a very exciting driver taking it to the very limits, and he makes F1 better for it. His battle with Vettel in Silverstone even, was just great to see. Stunning driving from both on the very edge.

 

Good points but I think you have to look at his father to see where he gets his attitude

Only a few drivers out there have race craft that would have them still alive back in the bad old days of the 50s and 60s .......... Button, Kimi, Alonso (sorry furoni ), Barrichello, and a very select few in the last couple of decades.

The cars are so safe now you can go flying (ask Webber ) and still survive horrendous crashes.

Drivers that would have died in the 50/60s :

Senna, Schumacher, Prost, most of the current drivers

Deliberately driving people off the track or crashing into them would have had people either killed or permanently banned, there was NO safety in the cars back then and an idiot like Max or Grosjean would have been badly injured by now .... Maldonado would be dead

 

The weather god or whom would you suggest? Of course the driver. The driver picks his line of travel around the track, the driver decides what speed is suitable for the condition, the driver observes how conditions change, the driver adjusts the speed accordingly. You get it wrong --> spin. This is all risk management. This is all driver's choice.

 

Every experienced racer knows the adage, "To finish first, first you must finish." So, the fact that things have worked out for him with his very aggressive starts may really boil down to other drivers doing their best to avoid him, as opposed to his skill or luck at getting away with it. He's perhaps forced himself into spots where, but for another driver's efforts, he couldn't fit. Another way of looking at this is that he is forcing the other guy to take evasive action to avoid his move. Maybe kosher. Maybe not. It's racing, though, so expect hard-nosed tactics.

And, I think some of his defensive tactics don't feel right to me, either (I'm thinking of MEX last season). He missed the braking point, went four wheels off, and then came back on in the same position, when he was fighting for a podium (was it?). It was a mistake, and he should have ceded the position. Instead, he held up VET, who was faster and wanted to challenge the MBs, and argued that the stewards would sort it out after the fact (IIRC). It was a spoiler performance, IMO, and showed his immaturity. So, it may have been technically legal, I think he got away with one.

Yes, he makes the racing more interesting, and, for that, we should be happy. How long have we all been arguing how disappointing much of the racing is these days? He's fighting hard to win. Again, I respect that. And, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and others were all calculating and ruthless when they had to be (if not every time they belted up). So, it would be hypocritical to not call them out for their own questionable tactics when we do Max. But, I also can't say that I like him. His interview attitude isn't great, I don't think, and his quotes come off as arrogant sometimes. Maybe something gets lost in language translations or quirks of his Dutch culture, though. So, he does receive some benefit of the doubt from me.

He's got a nice career ahead of him, I think. I certainly see him at the head of the next class of drivers as the "grey hairs" start to file out (ALO and RAI, in particular). But, youth has exuberance (and lots to prove to everyone) that can turn people off, too. He is on track at high rates of speed with some guys who often don't have good things to say about his driving. So, while I know he's unlikely to heed any advice on the subject, maybe he might consider that they can do damage to him, too, if he doesn't stop acting like a jackass.

Regardless, management at Red Bull has to be more pleased with him than not. The RIC incident in Hungary aside. He's qualifying okay. He starts and races well. It's just a matter of time before he's a WDC, if the trajectory continues and he has a good car under him, IMO.

CW

 

Max better be patient and take it easy. Or else he will be remembered as one hit wonder. I see more arrogance then confidence in him now.

 

+1

Personally I think he is ******, and is being overshadowed by Ricciardo who is surely the best passer on the grid.

Yes I know Max has more car failures, but he is still ****** and not somebody I would want to share the track with. His father was also ****** and scared everybody on any race track, resulting in some huge accidents.

It takes more than amazing braveness to be a great racing driver. We all should read up on Gilles Villeneuve who was NOT the car destroyer that many remember him as but a driver that always pushing the limit, but when he needed to, extremely tidy, etc. Gilles didn't just drive into the side of others ...

Like Bernie, F1 will be better off when Max leaves.
Pete

 

WEll said about Gilles, The amout of mistakes he did is indeed very small if you think of how often he pulled risky manouevers...almost every race (many times more than once per race) Gilles would pull some stunt, some unbelievable overtake, and 90% of the time it would work....with Max, 90% it will end in tears either for him or worst for someone else who is completly blamless!! Alesi was another one that could pull such moves most of the time....Max is trying but he is failing most of the time...he is very talented, but perhaps not as talented as he thinks.

 

DITTO!

 

Pedro you're picking a few overtakes that ended in tears and basing all your facts of that. You know that this is simply not true. The amount of successful overtakes he's pulled off vastly outweighs the ones that ended in tears for either him or the other.

 

To think he's an arrogant knob, yes I can support that view. Especially compared to guys in the field such as Ricciardo and Kimi. I've first hand experience with his dad being a full on **** also. That said I do give him a little lee-way because he's still young and he's come over genuine quite a few times to me.

However I don't think he's overshadowed by Ricciardo really...Ricciardo knows full well that all his recent success was all purely because of Verstappen's car failures.

IMO he's a delight to F1 and more drivers like him are needed that make sensational overtakes. It's a nice change from the usual procession.

 

I think max is fantastic driver that has speed and raw talent.

However i think he's a crappy racer. He doesn't have the experience or maturity yet and i'm sure his ******* father isn't helping at all.

Ricciardo's success is based on his ability to race wheel to wheel with anyone and do it fairly, his overtaking skills, and his reliability.

It could be crap luck for max, or it could be the way he hammers the car. If you look at last weekend, when they were in Q2, Dan did his one lap, saw it was good enough and preserved his tires and engine for the race. Max went out and hammered away repeatedly, 110% the whole time.

Once he reigns in his talent, he'll be a great driver. Until then, he's just going to be a liability.

 

I think max is fantastic driver that has speed and raw talent.

However i think he's a crappy racer. He doesn't have the experience or maturity yet and i'm sure his ******* father isn't helping at all.

Ricciardo's success is based on his ability to race wheel to wheel with anyone and do it fairly, his overtaking skills, and his reliability.

It could be crap luck for max, or it could be the way he hammers the car. If you look at last weekend, when they were in Q2, Dan did his one lap, saw it was good enough and preserved his tires and engine for the race. Max went out and hammered away repeatedly, 110% the whole time.

Once he reigns in his talent, he'll be a great driver. Until then, he's just going to be a liability.

 

He did it because Elton got away with it. Verstappen then received a penalty..

 

Not really Bas....i can remenber him last year at Spa crashing against the Ferraris, taking Seb's wing at Canada, taking Ricci last race, the stupid move he pulled on Kimi on the Kemmel straight, his defense against seb in mexico..out of the track....Monaco in his first year (i believe he ramed someone...there are just too many litle things happening around him, he must learn how to do it without touching ather cars.....remenber the move Massa pulled on Elton in the Hungaroring in 2008? that's what i'm talking about...on the other hand, his performance in Brazil was out of this world, proving that he is in fact a major talent.

 

I can't recall LH's 4-wheel off, but you may well be right (and I don't dispute it...LH has been given a ton of leeway, IMO, and should have been penalized, too, if he did the same). That's still not an excuse (e.g. just because that other guy got away with it doesn't mean you can do it). More importantly, even with a penalty after the fact (wasn't it an additional x seconds were added to his time), it was still a spoiler to VET which had an impact on the race result. Argument being that VET could have battled for a better position.

CW

 

Sorry but that is wrong...Seb was behind Lewis and did not have a terrible start. He braked behind Lewis (maybe a bit early because he did not know when Lewis will brake). Max on the other hand was on the outside and had nobody in front of him so he had to care about nobody. That is how he came past Seb because he had a free lane rather than one in front. Then he simply turned over although he was not completely by Seb and expected Seb to brake even more...But when you look into the inboard of Seb you see that Max is visible way to late to react on him turning over...As I said before: Max makes a move and expects others to give in...I do not think it was Sebs fault but again extremely risky from Max.

As in Spa: Max was coming from the back and saw the cars in front of him he was trying to pass, the others see much less in their small mirrors.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8sD6qSA-lk

Only a little bit

 

Spa has been discussed.

Spa was not solely Verstappen's fault. His move was legitimate, he couldn't see that Vettel cut of Kimi and Vettel couldn't see that Verstappen was on the inside of Kimi. Kimi innocent party, Vettel and Verstappen both did things that could be done, but because they where both unsighted, it ended in tears. I've always maintained Verstappen was completely wrong and red misted with what happened later that race.

Monaco Grosjean braked much earlier than Verstappen who was on brand new tyres. **** happens. If we dig far enough every single driver has done something like that at one point, especially in their first F1 year. Compare that to what others do in only their 2nd car racing year!

I can't see how Canada was Verstappens fault.

Verstappen has made plenty of round the outside moves like Massa did on Hamilton, but those are all conveniently forgotten now that it's ''Bash the Max'' time.

 

camon Bas, that's not me..unless we talk about Elton or the porky pine....but Max causes more casualties than usual...he was overoptimistic in Spa.....he must learn to do things without hiting anyone.

 

Yep, Max Verstappen doesn't seem to mature after 3 years of F1, and still ends up in too many scraps.

A fast driver maybe, and audacious one certainly, but he still hasn't got the whole picture and not WDC material, in my book. I thing that even in a good car, young Max would still play silly bugger. His father was the same: all b********* no brain !

Ricciardo is maybe slightly slower, but he is the finished article and could get a WDC one day. Any top team should consider him for that. Over a whole season he could deliver.

 

Max was coming from the back so he saw both cars in front of him..Where did he expect Vettel to drive through the corner??? Beside the track to leave enough room for 7 cars on the inside??? Max saw what was going on, Seb did not because it happened in the blind spot so I do not see anyone else to blame but Max....
And to think that the Ferraris were to blame for "ruining him his race" and taking revenge a few laps later might shows on one side that he has absolutely no self-criticism (so how does he want to mature if there is no discernment) and is actually worse than what Seb did with Lewis because it was minutes later and at much higher speed.

 

Mate you need to rewatch that first corner. Seb cut back to the inside to cut Kimi off!! He had acres of space on the other side but didn't want Kimi to overtake him, but didn't know Verstappen was on the inside.

As for the other thing, him blaming Ferrari...how many times have I said he was stupid for saying that and especially taking that action?