Totally agree. And I am tired of the "Lewis did it too argument." This so called argument is completely silly. Any karting kid knows that if you exceed the limits of the track for position at a chicane, it's cutting the chicane and not a pass, no matter who does it. Also, when Lewis cut the chicane, I don't recall it was for position and there was a much bigger gap to the next car. No pass involved. See? It's about the change of position and track limits. You can drive in the grass like a punk landscaper all you want if it doesn't effect your position or shorten your race length by a significant amount. (think Monza) What's the point of a chicane if you can get permission to drive right through to support ratings and fan base? That was bull-***** pass and Max will forever be a "punk landscaper" in my mind. Riding a lawnmower, cutting the grass. Unless of course, he wises up like Seb did, when he was crashing in to Webber all the time. p.s. The data logging at Baku clearly shows 2 flat spots in Hamilton's chart curve right before the collision. It may not have been a brake check but is sure as heck was a "grade-drag" check.
IMO, Max has talent but has yet to prove he's more of an asset than a liability. I do hope in time that will change though. I'm pretty sure most of the drivers on the grid are just praying not to qualify anywhere near him...even Elton said Max is dangerous. I think Max is better suited for Nascar. Where rubbin'n is racin'
I hope I am wrong, but the way I see it, I don't think he has a great future in F1. Max is burning the candle at both ends.
You're usually level headed around here, but you seem to have some max blinders on. Nobody is denying his talent, but his racecraft and patience are his biggest enemies right now. He's almost like a sim racer going for the first corner dive bomb except with real consequences. If he doesn't reign it in, he'll be a bad investment for any team. Ricciardo is almost as good but twice as reliable and takes advantage of the situations using patience.
I did mate and I can´t believe we have to discuss that again Max was overtaken by both Ferraris and Nico, Seb and Kimi were braking for La Source, only Max decided that braking is for girls and took the inner line...Now everybody who listened in physics in school might know that taking a tighter line in a corner means you have to go slower rather than faster...So IN CASE both Seb (who did not even see him) and Kimi would have left enough room on the inside at the apex of the corner, where do you think Max would have came out AFTER the apex. Having at least the same speed as the two with the wider line he would have never stayed on the inside but would have run wide at the exit of the corner certainly not leaving enough room for both Ferraris on the outside. So if the Ferrari would have not turned into him he CERTAINLY would have turned into them at the exit running them wide!!! Even with ONE car next to him this stunt would have only worked with a lot of good will of the one to be overtaken but it will NEVER work with two cars next to him. And coming from behind he was the only one in this incident who was easily aware where the both others were I never questioned that but in my opinion the red mist did not appear after the accident but a few meters after the starting line. As in Hungary Max lost (being run wide by Bottas) at the start and decided hotheaded to make up for that in the very next corner... And comparing both start incidents Max obviously did not learn ANYTHING between Spa 2016 and Hungary 2017 so when will he start to mature as you suggest??? Unfortunately I tend to agree...You complained about a lot of your countrymen following Max "blind" but you tend to defend him as well no matter what. I doubt that you would have seen both incidents (Spa and Hungary) the same way if Lewis would have been involved
Thanks. I've always maintained he was very wrong on his 2nd Spa incident, being extremely aggressive towards the Ferrari's because he was pissed off. That was incredibly dumb. I just think he's being unfairly vilified for what was quite simply, an honest mistake.
You were ALMOST right Dan is better and I'll think you'll see him prove it a lot more from now on .... but you're definitely right about the patience thing although I can empathise with Max, I have NO patience and I'm not racing for sheep stations
I think Dan is highly underrated, but max is a tiny bit quicker. Dan in the ferrari this year would have more wins than vettel IMO.
Somebody please prove this "Max is a tiny bit quicker" than Ricciardo thing as I'm not seeing it. Also Ricciardo is the best racer on the grid bar nobody. Pete
Well he's been out qualifying Dan lately ... I think Dan is taking the long view, let Max take out the leaders and he'll sit back and take advantage of the fallout ..... unfortunately he WAS part of the fallout
Max shows potential. He clearly has issues with the other drivers under braking and how they see him. He lacks control it seems early on. So he has work to do. Upside or downside, the effort Max makes to be a touch more strategic will be the difference. Max is in a good car and should be doing well. Others in the same car should be doing well. Its a good car. Its up to Max to do well and keep the car out of trouble.
Well I did the numbers: 2015 Aus Qualifying - Ric Max 1'28.868 did not reach Q3 Ric 1'28.329 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 6th 2015 Malaysian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:51.981 Ric 1:51.541 Race - Max Max 7th Ric 10th 2015 Chinese Qualifying - Ric Max 1:38.393 did not reach Q3 Ric 1:37.540 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 9th 2015 Bahrain Qualifying - Ric Max 1:35.103 did not reach Q3 Ric 1:33.832 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 6th 2015 Spain Qualifying - Max Max 1:26.249 but slower than Sainz Ric 1:26.770 but slower than Kvyat Race - Ric Max 11th Ric 7th 2015 Monaco Qualifying - Ric Max 1:16.957 Ric 1:16.041 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 5th but behind Kvyat 2015 Canada Qualifying - Ric Max 1:16.245 but slower than Sainz Ric 1:16.114 but slower than Kvyat Race - Ric Max 15th but behind Sainz Ric 13th but behind Kvyat 2015 Austrian Qualifying - Max Max 1:09.612 Ric 1:10.482 but slower than Kvyat Race - Max Max 8th Ric 10th 2015 British Qualifying - Ric Max 1:34.502 but slower than Sainz Ric 1:33.943 but slower than Kvyat Race - NA Max DNF spin Ric DNF 2015 Hungarian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:23.679 Ric 1:22.774 Race - Ric Max 4th Ric 3rd but behind Kvyat 2015 Belgian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:49.831 but slower than Sainz Ric 1:48.639 Race - NA Max 8th Ric DNF 2015 Italian Qualifying - NA Max DNQ Ric 1:25.633 Race - Ric Max 12th but behind Sainz Ric 8th 2015 Singapore Qualifying - Ric Max 1:45.798 Ric 1:44.428 Race - Ric Max 8th Ric 2nd 2015 Japanese Qualifying - Ric Max 1:34.522 Ric 1:33.497 Race - Max Max 9th Ric 15th but behind Kvyat 2015 Russian Qualifying - Max Max 1:38.924 Ric 1:39.728 Race - Max Max 10th Ric 15th but behind Kvyat 2015 United States Qualifying - Ric Max 1:58.689 in Q1 Ric 1:57.969 but 1:56.495 in Q1 Race - Max Max 4th Ric 10th 2015 Mexico Qualifying - Ric Max 1:20.710 Ric 1:20.399 but slower than Kvyat Race - Ric Max 9th Ric 5th but behind Kvyat 2015 Brazilian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:12.739 Ric 1:12.417 but slower than Kvyat Race - Max Max 9th Ric 11th but behind Kvyat 2015 Abu Dhabi Qualifying - Ric Max 1:42.521 but slower than Sainz in Q2 Ric 1:41.444 Race - Ric Max 16th but behind Sainz Ric 6th 2015 totals: Qualifying: Max 3, Ric 15, NA 1 (excluding NAs caused by DNQs Max 3, Ric 16) Race: Max 6, Ric 7, NA 6 (excluding NAs caused by DNFs Max 7, Ric 11) 2016 Aus Qualifying - Max Max 1:25.434 Ric 1:25.589 Race - Ric Max 10th Ric 4th 2016 Bahrain Qualifying - Ric Max 1:31.772 but did not make Q3 Ric 1:30.854 Race - Ric Max 6th Ric 4th 2016 Chinese Qualifying - Ric Max 1:37.194 but slower than Sainz Ric 1:35.917 Race - Ric Max 8th Ric 4th but behind Kvyat 2016 Russian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:37.583 Ric 1:37.125 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 11th 2016 Spain - First race for Max in RedBull Qualifying - Ric Max 1:23.087 Ric 1:22.680 Race - Max Max 1st Ric 4th 2016 Monaco Qualifying - NA Max DNQ Ric 1:13.622 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 2nd 2016 Canada Qualifying - Ric Max 1:13.414 Ric 1:13.166 Race - Max Max 4th Ric 7th 2016 European Qualifying - Ric Max 1:45.570 Ric 1:43.966 Race - Ric Max 8th Ric 7th 2016 Austrian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:11.153 Ric 1:09.980 Race - Max Max 2nd Ric 5th 2016 British Qualifying - Max Max 1:30.313 Ric 1:30.618 Race - Max Max 2nd Ric 4th 2016 Hungarian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:20.557 Ric 1:20.280 Race - Ric Max 5th Ric 3rd 2016 German Qualifying - Ric Max 1:14.834 Ric 1:14.726 Race - Ric Max 3rd Ric 2nd 2016 Belgian Qualifying - Max Max 1:46.893 Ric 1:47.216 Race - Ric Max 11th Ric 2nd 2016 Italian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:22.411 Ric 1:22.389 Race - Ric Max 7th Ric 5th 2016 Singapore Qualifying - Ric Max 1:43.328 Ric 1:43.115 Race - Ric Max 6th Ric 2nd 2016 Malaysian Qualifying - Max Max 1:33.420 Ric 1:33.467 Race - Ric Max 2nd Ric 1st 2016 Japanese Qualifying - Max Max 1:31.178 Ric 1:31.240 Race - Max Max 2nd Ric 6th 2016 United States Qualifying - Ric Max 1:35.747 Ric 1:35.509 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 3rd 2016 Mexico Qualifying - Max Max 1:19.054 but was even faster in Q2 Ric 1:19.133 Race - Ric Max 4th Ric 3rd 2016 Brazilian Qualifying - Max Max 1:11.485 Ric 1:11.540 Race - Max Max 3rd Ric 8th 2016 Abu Dhabi Qualifying - Ric Max 1:39.818 Ric 1:39.589 Race - Max Max 4th Ric 5th 2016 totals: Qualifying: Max 7, Ric 13, NA 1 (excluding NAs caused by DNQs Max 7, Ric 14) Race: Max 7, Ric 11, NA 3 (excluding NAs caused by DNFs Max 7, Ric 14) 2017 Aus Qualifying - Max Max 1'23.485 Ric 1'23.989 but car failed in Q3 Race - NA Max 5th Ric DNF 2017 China Qualifying - Ric Max 1'35.433 Ric 1'33.033 Race - Max Max 3rd Ric 4th 2017 Bahrain Qualifying - Ric Max 1'29.687 Ric 1'29.545 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 5th 2017 Russia Qualifying - Ric Max 1'35.161 Ric 1'34.905 Race - NA Max 5th Ric DNF 2017 Spain Qualifying - Ric Max 1'19.706 Ric 1'20.175 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 3rd 2017 Monaco Qualifying - Max Max 1'12.496 Ric 1'12.998 Race - Ric Max 5th Ric 3rd 2017 Canada Qualifying - Max Max 1'12.403 Ric 1'12.557 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 3rd 2017 Azerbaijan Qualifying - Max Max 1'41.879 Ric 1'43.414 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 1st 2017 Austrian Qualifying - Ric Max 1:04.983 Ric 1:04.896 Race - NA Max DNF Ric 3rd 2017 British Qualifying - Max Max 1'28.130 Ric 1'42.966 Race - Max Max 4th Ric 5th 2017 Hungarian Qualifying - Max Max 1'16.797 Ric 1'16.818 Race - NA Max 5th Ric DNF 2017 totals: Qualifying: Max 6, Ric 5, NA 0 Race: Max 2, Ric 1, NA 8 (excluding NAs caused by DNFs Max 5, Ric 6) Qualification results: Since 2015 Max has out qualified Ric 16 times, while Ric has out qualified Max 33 times. Admittedly 18 out of this 33 was when Max was in the Torro Rosso, so that leaves 15 times when both in RedBulls. Say yeah Max is a incy wincy tiny bit faster by out qualifying Ric a single one more time. Race results: Since 2015 Max has out raced Ric 15 times, while Ric has out raced Max 19 times (this does not include races where either did not finish. If we include those Ric has out raced Max 31 times!!). Admittedly 10 out of this 19 (or 31) times was when Max was in the Torro Rosso. Interestingly in 2015 both Max and Ric were often beaten by Sainz and Kvyat in both qualifying and the race. Also the Torro Rosso occasionally beat the Red Bull. Max's 2015 race results were only 1 race behind Rics, being 6 ahead versus 7. The 2015 Torro Rosso was a good car. My conclusion, Max is considerably overrated because he is an all or nothing driver that generates TV/spectator interest, but the facts prove that Ricciardo is the better driver. There is no difference in speed but Ricciardo is miles better in a race. Pete
Thanks, I was going to do that but lost interest ....... the Philistines here forget them 5 mins after they've been posted And then you get huge arguments about the veracity of your compilation
This thread is quite funny really! For years on end we've had complaints about the lack of overtaking in F1, and the fact that none of the drivers even bothers to try an overtake, unlike in MotoGP, where riders are prepared to jam it down the inside to pull off an overtake. Finally, with Max we have a driver who is prepared to give it a go and overtake in places others daren't even try, and he's getting a slating for it! At least Max doesn't just sit around for lap after lap holding station in the usual F1 procession! Yes he get's it wrong every now and again, but guess what? - So did Gilles Villeneuve on occasions, but the fans loved the fact that he at least tried something, and it's the same with Max, at least he tries!
He is faster. Comparing stats when they were in different cars makes no sense. You Aussies are going to learn in time. Just watch. I remember when you guys thought Webber was better than Vettel. LOL!
I think journeyman is harsh. I rate Ricciardo very highly. Lest we forget his thrashing of Seb in his first year in RBR after Seb was coming off 4 WDC as the golden child in the team...but yes Max is the next superstar. The kid is unbelievable. Red Bull has the best driver pairing on the grid in my opinion.
he did it right at the start of the race. same exact thing max did, completely blew the first corner and cut through and still maintained lead. no penalty. was a joke, but par for the course when it comes to LH and his preferential treatment
My hero Irvine was a journey man as well. No disrespect meant by that. I just don't rate Ricci that high. Just as Irv was no MS. And I don't count the year he beat Seb. Vettel is one of the Goats.
I don't really count the year he beat Vettel that much either, as it's blown out of proportion....but he's certainly not a journey man. IMO he can quite easily take the fight to Lewis and beat him. IMO only 3 guys faster than him in current field: Alonso, Vettel and Verstappen. And not by much.
I hate that argument. How do you not count that year? Lets hope next year Ric gets into Ferrari alongside Seb and lets see how it goes again. Vettel is not one of the GOATs in my opinion. GOATs can drive anything, not just the fastest car that suits their style.
+1 IIRC Verstappen said it after the race the only reason he kept going was because he saw Elton doing the exact same thing and didn't get a penalty.
