'97 F355 Spider runs TERRIBLE after header swap | Page 2 | FerrariChat
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'97 F355 Spider runs TERRIBLE after header swap

Discussion in '348/355' started by krazykarguy, Aug 22, 2017.

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  1. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    #26 SoCal1, Aug 22, 2017
    Saw Pineapple martini's the other day in hawaii, they ferment the pineapple in vodka for a few months.

    I think I saw god :)
     
  2. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #27 WATSON, Aug 22, 2017
    Fixed it!
     
  3. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #28 WATSON, Aug 22, 2017
    This^

    To be clear, you are checking the oil level directly (ie immediately) after engine shut down, right?

    Better yet, check it with the engine at idle.

    Dry sumps are a different breed and overfilled can make a big mess.
     
  4. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #29 krazykarguy, Aug 22, 2017
    So rear O2 sensors seemed to help significantly (they were definitely original and definitely fouled) although the recommendation of getting the oil level correct seems to be the right suggestion. My dad says he siphoned over a quart and a half from the oil tank before it was the correct HOT level.

    We both suspect that the tech didn't measure what came out of the car when the tank was removed and the engine drained. He refilled it cold and measured it cold.

    My dad says that the car is running and revving as it was prior to the header replacement now. I am cautiously optimistic that he has the issue nailed. However, we are replacing plugs and wires and potentially front O2 sensors during my visit in a week and a half.
     
  5. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #30 Dave rocks, Aug 22, 2017
    A quart and 1/2 is WAY OVERFILLED. That would not happen cold. The tech clearly had no idea what he was doing :rolleyes:

    Wires are big bucks - don't waste your money for no reason but I do suggest you check out our inexpensive plug boot removal tool to prevent the need for new wires.
     
  6. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
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    #31 eyboro, Aug 23, 2017
    I bet that there is a bad connection somewhere in the exhaust system, that will definitely cause rough idle.
     
  7. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #32 krazykarguy, Aug 23, 2017
    @ Dave: My dad already bought a set of Kingsborne wires and new spark plugs so we'll use that as an excuse to spend even more father-son time together in the garage. We'll also be taking my new wi-fi borescope to the OEM headers to ascertain what condition they are in.

    Right now, the plan is to take the car for a brief spin today or tomorrow, after re-confirming the oil level. Hopefully all goes well and the car runs properly...

    ...if not, this thread will continue.

    Many thanks to the contributions thus far.
     
  8. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #33 Dave rocks, Aug 23, 2017
    Forget the borescope on the headers. You need to smoke test the system if you suspect a leak.
     
  9. Drock28

    Drock28 Formula 3

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    #34 Drock28, Aug 23, 2017
    oh boy.. that was quite overfilled..

    I just posted yesterday in the 360 section this vid showing the result of oil overfill..

    is it possible for oil to accumulate inside the intake plenum like this on the 355..?

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KTw3hj0Emo[/ame]
     
  10. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #35 krazykarguy, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    Wow. I'm calling my dad now to let him know that this is a distinct possibility... however, the 355 plenums appear to go straight into the ITBs, without the 'moat' that the 360 seems to have. There is likely some minor pooling at the bases of the velocity stacks if the oil did indeed make its way there.

    However - in the PCV diagram Dave posted earlier - it appears that there is a hose at the bottom of the plenums on the 355 ('oil recycling line') that would drain back to the oil filter base. Am I reading that diagram wrong?
     
  11. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #36 krazykarguy, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    My dad is an avid cigar smoker, I think that should suffice... lol

    The only reason we'd check them out would be so that we could potentially pass them along to another user who wanted the OEM look without brand-new OEM pricing to replace their failed headers.
     
  12. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #37 Dave rocks, Aug 23, 2017
    A bore scope is a fine tool, but it's the wrong tool for this job.

    If you had a gas leak in your house, would you use a bore scope to find it? :D
     
  13. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #38 krazykarguy, Aug 23, 2017
    I think that the suggestion for using the borescope was primarily to look for the telltale signs of metal fatigue, i.e. buckling or collapsing in the primaries. There are plenty of examples of collapsed 355/360 headers online to reference - so we know where the 'trouble spots' are without cutting off the clamshells to visually inspect.

    This particular car did not exhibit any signs of header failures - my dad was only making this header replacement a priority because of the horror stories he has read.

    My suggestion had been to do them during the major next year - we could have avoided this oil tank/overfull oil situation!
     
  14. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran

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    #39 JaguarXJ6, Aug 23, 2017
    Seems like O2 sensor orientation of front to back were reversed which would cause all sorts of mixture issues like this. On a OBD2 car this can generally be resolved going through an ECU orientation on the sensors of modern cars or swapping them into their correct positions and doing several restarts with just a minute or two of idle between. Honestly, an ECU reset will do the same thing but clear all of your drive monitors and will take a bit of driving for the ECU to optimize fuel/air with the new headers working with the new cats. Of course, overfill is certainly an issue but the stumbling and black rich is certainly likely from O2s in the wrong bung. Always start with the easy things first and make sure those are in the correct orientation. My two cents. P.S. remember, fuel is black smoke, oil is blue smoke.
     
  15. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #40 fatbillybob, Aug 23, 2017
    It is common to see some oil in the intake tract pooling at low spots. Modern systems dump blowby oily vapor into the intake and as the vapor cools the oil drops out into the intake tract while most of it burns in the motor.

    On a USA obd2 car you may or maynot have issues with 02 related cel's. Extenders in position 2 are used when test pipes or free flowing cats are used and cels are being thrown. The extenders are there to trick the ECU by making the reading from 021 different from 022.

    There still could be a lot of bad going on. I always start with basics and confirm them. I start with making sure both banks are working. EGT (exhaust gas temp) knowledge is your friend. A boroscope can be very valuable to make sure the cats are not broken up or you can take them off and look. IR temp of each header being equal and one cat hot and one cat at header temp tells you something. Fire out the exhaust pipe tells you something about ignition. If you throw enough parts at it you will win. But, it is always nice to just throw what you need.
     
  16. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #41 krazykarguy, Aug 24, 2017
    @Sunny - Based on his original description of the problem, I suspected that the front and rear O2 sensors had somehow gotten plugged into the wrong ports (identical plugs differentiated only by a blue tape - sometimes no longer present) - but I was told that they were never disconnected for the header swap. I had my dad verify this before proceeding with anything else.

    @Bob - I was also baffled as to why there were O2 extenders on the post-cat sensors, especially with OEM cats. They're gone now - My dad noted that they were putting the sensor's wires up against the tubing of the engine cradle. Not good.

    I also had him pull both rubber bellows from the plenum and there was no standing oil inside, nor extreme amounts of oil film. Certainly nothing like the 360 video posted yesterday.

    Regardless, he seems to think he's out of the woods on this one. He took the car out yesterday - and while he didn't get on it to redline, he said it revved and drove smoothly up to 5-5.5k RPM. His biggest complaint was that it seemed 'quieter' than it did before (Capristo time! *wink* *wink*). Anyone else have this happen with FabSpeed headers?
     
  17. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

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    #42 radlu, Aug 24, 2017
    So ALL the CEL's are gone?
     
  18. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #43 krazykarguy, Aug 24, 2017
    As far as I am aware!
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #44 Qavion, Aug 24, 2017
    Matt, note that some CELs are only generated after a couple of drives.
     
  20. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior
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    #45 Robbe, Aug 25, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
    The smoke, is it unburned gas or oil?
    Assuming it is unburned gas, start with all O2 sensors disconnected at the electrical connectors and see how the idle is. Also disconnect the airboxes (but leave the part with the MAF sensor in place.)
    Put your hand in front of the opening to see if the idle sounds better (rpm will rise) . If so, then the mixture is way off.
    Then reconnect the sensors again, be sure to put the front O2 cable in the front O2 connector, these get switched (or maybe have been switched by that mechanic??). Front ones have a blue ribbon at the connector to tell them apart.
    If you are lucky, then the problem is solved (it worked with my car)

    edit: I just read page 2 and 3 and it looks like it is solved already...will read all/better next time lol...
     
  21. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

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    #46 krazykarguy, Aug 25, 2017
    Hi Robbe -

    I do the same thing as well on other forums - "jump in with a solution that was already proposed"... I appreciate the extra suggestions.
     
  22. Drock28

    Drock28 Formula 3

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    #47 Drock28, Aug 25, 2017
    yes the Fabspeed headers have a change in tone..

    due to the 4-1 design as opposed to 4-2-1.

    at the top end some of the "scream" is lost.. that's produced with the stock headers.

    so im not surprised he noticed a change in sound with the fabspeed headers on..
     
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