360 F-1 off the line clutch actuation

I had a new clutch installed in my 2001 360 F-1 Spyder. Initially, the PIS point was 5.7. Accelerating normally off the line the engine would rev to nearly 3,000 rpms before the clutch would be fully engaged and bring them back down. The PIS point was readjusted to 4.9. The car still revs to 2,500 rpm under the same situation. I feel it is slipping excessively before engagement. (I just drove a friends Gallardo and the clutch was fully engaged by 2,000 rpm and felt much better).
By what rpm are your 360s fully engaged under normal acceleration? Is there anything that adjusts the rate of engagement as opposed to just the start point since I believe my PIS point adjustment is now just below the recommended range?

 

Anything over 2k is excessive IMO. My 04 CS starts to grab at 1500-1800RPM, then I let of the throttle just the slightest bit and start rolling away around 1300 RPM.

 

This sounds like you are driving it like an automatic instead of a manual. If you read what CarbonDan wrote you see to give it some gas to get rolling then back off a little to fully engage the clutch. If you keep rolling on the throttle the clutch will continue to slip for some time. 3000 isn't unreasonable if you drive it like an auto. The clutch life will be terrible also.

 

I had this issue with my 360. Mechanic said it was combination of sticky throw out bearing and resurfaced flywheel that caused the clutch to wear on the inner diameter more than the outer diameter. According to the mechanic, you cannot resurface the flywheel on the F1 cars, as the flywheel is not designed to be flat, and this is responsible for common slippage problems on 360s.

 

I always drive my CS in 'race' mode because there is virtually no clutch slip. I start to apply throttle and as I feel it bite, I open the throttle more to get little no slip. This all takes place between 1300-1500 rpm. The last time I checked PIS, it was 4.8.

 

Sorry for this, but your mechanic seems to be full of it...

First of all; both versions (F1 and manuals), share the same flywheel. No difference in part nr.
Secondly: Look in the Work shop Manual and there's tolerances for maximum wear of the flywheel. It also clearly says that the flywheel needs to be resurfaced (lathed), when changing the clutch.
Thirdly; Faulty TOB is a common problem (I had it on mu 360 and posted several pics), and is causes by inferior seals. Luckely Hill Engineering makes a updated / better one. Can be sourced via Ricambi.

 

I would find a new mechanic.

 

He's registered here over a decade ago so I would assume (I hope) he knows how to drive a F1 tranny F-car?

I had my clutch + flywheel replaced 4 months ago and PIS adjusted accordingly. In SPORT mode the clutch grabs almost instantly and if I want I can get the car moving almost with idle rpm (parking lots, empty streets, etc. situations). Of course in normal traffic that's not always possible because in that way the car begins to move quite slowly -> other motorists are passing you left and right.

In NORMAL mode revs get a bit higher but stay well under 2k, I'd say somewhere around 1500-1600rpm in any situation when driven like a F1 should.

 

even the most worn clutch and/or flywheel will kiss perfectly if the PIS is right (provided they are still useable)
just adjust the PIS and be done with it!
In most cases, if your PIS is below 5.0 for that matter, congrats, you could get at least 10,000 miles out of your clutch/flywheel combo

 

It sounds as if yours engages pretty quickly once it begins while mine seems to engage slowly.

 

Most likely you'll need to adjust PIS...
But there's a lot of other stuff that can play a part in slow engagement as well; angular sensor, clutch sensor, etc, etc - do a scan to read codes and then set PIS.

 

Interesting comments, this is one of the most recommended mechanics on ferrari chat in Southern California. I believed him when I called vivid racing about their after market flywheel, which they said is specifically designed for manual only and won't work with F1.

 

I may have a been a little too general in my comment. The mechanic may be excellent when it comes to wrenching on the Ferrari. When it comes to flywheels and clutches,
He is definitely misinformed. If the flywheel is not designed to be flat, them the clutch surface must also be designed not to be flat in order to achieve maximum surface contact. I did a runout of my NOS flywheel and it is dead nuts on flat. Typical of every flywheel I have seen in the past 50 plus years. BTW...the flywheel surfacing machine at my machine shop can only perform flat cuts, not concave and not convex.

Think about it!

 

It would be interesting to know where this myth of a non-flat flywheel on Ferraris originated from. Does any one knows?

 

BTW: The mechanic in question is RMT motorsports in Yorba Linda. He claimed that he was educated about the non-flat flywheels for the F1 system by Ferrari in Italy.

 

Any ideas why it clearly states manual only on this product?
https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/aasco-aluminum-flywheel-ferrari-360-9905-p-101723.html

 

Can only speculate but I assume it is because the motor is very low torque and reducing the flywheel weight further would require retuning of the F1. It probably makes your engines tune hyper critical as well.

 

By the way, I have heard this from other well known factory trained mechanics. I don't think that it is very far off flat but I have been told that it is not flat. As I understand it the clutch plate is flat and deforms the slight amount to mate the flywheel. This helps with the progressive engagement on the F1.

 

I only know of 1 flywheel part number be it Manual or F1 #181596.
Is it possible to use a more light weight flywheel on a F1... Yep and it works.

There are 2 settings...
- PIS everyone fixates on just this one.
- Closed Clutch Position.

Now if you play around a bit with these values, i found that CCP had a some very interesting effects on clutch behaviour.

 

I thought closed clutch position is not adjustable?

 

I missed out the 'new' as in "New" Closed Clutch Position.

 

My understanding is that the new clutch closed position only is used to calculate the clutch wear number, and does not affect the operation of the clutch system. PIS is the only setting that affects the clutch operation.

 

It really irks me when someone that has little to no experience working on Ferraris puts down a mechanic that clearly has much more training and knowledge that they do.
First of all, the non-flat 360 flywheel has been discussed numerous times on Ferrarichat over the years. Do a search and you will find multiple threads regarding it.
Secondly If you just looked at your Ferrari Gearbox manual that you received during factory training, you would see a diagram of how Ferrari wants the flywheel on a 360 Modena (both F1 and Manual gearbox) to be ground (tapered from the ouside diameter towards the center). There is only one part number for the 360 flywheel, both F1 and manual gearbox use the same flywheel.

Who knows why some Ferrari engineer came up with this idea, perhaps to smooth out the clutch engagement? Somewhere along the way Ferrari abandoned this idea and started machining all of the flywheels flat. That is why your NOS flywheel doesn't have the tapered surface.

It just shows that the mechanic that knows that Ferrari 360's initially did not have flat flywheels has been a factory trained mechanic for a long time.

Next time do a little research before you badmouth another mechanic!

 

@Virulosity
Fully agree it is used to calculate wear.

But further I can say that it affects clutch behaviour.
How do i know... due to a curious thing my CCP value changed significantly whilst bedding in a new clutch/flywheel.
By virtue of having a Leonardo, i was able to see it had changed and reset it accordingly.
The behaviour the car exhibited at that time 'pre-change' was very odd and so i decided to experiment with moving the value either side of the suggested CCP along with determining the PIS point each time to see what would happen.
So +4hrs later i had cause and effect - but the rationality to explain it seems backwards to how I would have expected it to work.

 

what's the procedure to bed-in a new clutch?