Will there be a NEW manual transmission Ferrari model?

I agree with you the transmission in a GT3 is different from a regular 911. Doesn't even have to be from a 997 Turbo - could be a 991 R. To say it's an entirely different though, to the point where there is no cross sharing of parts is quite a stretch. Don't take my word for it. Here is a person that took an already developed transmission from a GT3 R and put it in his GT3. (before they announced the manual sadly for 2017, would have saved him a lot of time!)

I quote:
"Physically installing the parts for the manual transmission was perhaps the easiest thing the shop did. The 911 R parts were all but plug-and-play into the 991.1 GT3 RS chassis. The gearbox, clutch, pedal box and all of the other major mechanical parts needed to make it work were installed by BGB in only a couple of days."

As I said earlier, I doubt this will sway you. In the interest of clarity over agreement (ala Prager) - I say Porsche benefits from the hundreds of thousands of manual 911 transmissions accross their *whole* trim line to help defer and share parts for a transmission in a GT3. You say it's like starting from scratch, with zero, nada, zip - advantage. I'm happy to disagree.

I do agree with you 100% that if Ferrari decided to make a limited edition car with manual - everyone would sell before the first produced. Everybody knows this. My thesis has and always been that not that if it *would* sell, but that Ferrari makes more money by just offering one transmission on models. Now as a public company, this pressure will only grow. I make no claims on the benefits or pitfalls of this to the enthusiast community, my posts on this topic, that won't die like a horror movie villain, is to explain why it's not offered.

More importantly, Ferrari is one company that will happily oblige you *if* you pay them enough money. So pay up...if you don't got enough money - then quit whingeing.

 

Paul,

I think you still dont understand the porche models. Every current production 911/991 that is not a R or Gt3, is a turbo falt 6 motor and if with a manual transmssion is a 7 speeder which has nothing to do with the 6 speed and motor in the R and Gt3.

The transmission from the 991R is the same as the one in the Gt3. They made 500 991Rs' and this was a then unique engine tranny combo, a derivation of which is now in the Gt3. Thats still means 2k units, maybe 2500 odd if you include the R, of a unique engine tranny combo shared with nothing else in the line.

The powerpack (engine/tranny) goes in a regular manual 991/911 has nothing to do with what went into the R or now the manual Gt3.

Yes I agree ferrari makes more at 8k units by offering only one tranny because by definition offering another means more expense in terms of development and certification. I think we differ though in our assumptions about net units sold. While there would be some overlap of existing buyers it is my contention that a manual would lead to a net sales gain, ie bringing ferrari closer to its 10k unit sales goal, given that this can be done of an otherwise existing platform that means increased profit for minimal development costs.,.

 

That's interesting. Some years ago, when I first heard the 458s at Petit Le Mans downshifting into the 10a/10b complex at Road Atlanta I fell in love with their angry bumblebee sound! Last year, unfortunately, the 488 sound was nothing special and the only cars that sounded amazing were the naturally aspirated Porsche 911s.

 

Yes I can heel and toe,skip gears,etc. Go back after driving an automated manual. SURE! Right after I go back to a black and white tv and a manual typerwriter

 

The 458s sound glorious! I watched a bunch of the 488 videos and even listened to them in Rallies and the sound was much more muted as you stated. The ones in the races however have sport mufflers - good lord! it awakens the car up!

Here is video of 488s I took at the owner's area at this years Challenge

 

Youtube says "This video is unavailable."

 

would help if I actually pressed "Make public" huh?

Sorry try it now!

 

sorry! forgot to make it 'Public' - try now good sirs!

 

This is what separates driving enthusiasts from go-fast enthusiasts. Go-fast enthusiasts just want whatever is fastest (automatic transmission). Driving enthusiasts want to be challenged and involved at a higher level (manual transmission) and don't care about a few meaningless ticks of the clock.

 

What I dont get is why some paddle aficianados so object to ferrari offering a manual car, is it some feelign of deficiency or sense of threat ? Its not as though manual people are saying that ferrari shouldnt offer paddles.

We also need to be clear that manual means a properly integrated manual, not the poor effort that was the 599.
Given the low end tq and lower redline of the 488 motor it seems to be well suited to manual applications.

 

Without going into your whole post.
Regular amg mercdes sedans have a modified merc auto box. The transmission in the amg Gt 2 seaters are true double clutch boxes and the same internals as ferrari uses, which is one of the reasons why people were so puzzled that they sifted so much slower..

There are not pieces in common between the regular porche 7 speed and speed box as goes in the manual Gt3.
Its not a big deal for soem manufactuerers to make abox for limited production runs. The prior ford Gt had a bespoke transaxle for exampel over what 5k cars. It was built by ricardo in the uk.

In any event building or in many cases outsourcing the box is not the hard part or requiring much economy of scale. The hard part is integrating an unpredictable(human) manual box with an entirely electronic car(as all moderns are) Everythign from abs to anti skid to traction control, to egine power to emissions to fuel economy to sound elvels is inegrated into the transmision engine combo, think of it as an integrated powerpack. This is far easier to do with a double cluct(paddle box) as it only operates in concert witht eh ICE within certain code defined parameters. Do do amanual you have to rewrite the code as a human operated clutch gearbox is far less consistent, just think what a missed shift or abrubt downshift does to stability control. The difficulty then is one of coding testing and integrating. However it does not seem insurmountable to porche for limited runs of 2500 units.

If its not all about cutting edge pure performance as many here claim, if sound and combustion are important, then why not other aspects of driving engagement from transmisson to steering. Its really a function of where some people choose to draw the line and not others. A manual box is no more antique than and Ice or no Ps stterign. Its all really just about layers of driving engagement at relative speeds.
For that matter since the 1950s ac has been avaialble in cars and workign ac in italian cars sinec the 90s, so why do we need convertibles, didnt those go out with the horse and buggy.
Yes people love the experience of a convertible, despite the fact that the car weighs more and is less rigid.

Ferrari spyders are offered because it increases model sales and is profitable.

As to an electric ferrai, yes we see the system as employed in the laferrari is comming, Essentialy an electric flywheel assist so that mtoro can be tuned for max hp and have the tq deficits filled in with electric assist. In theroy you get the best of all worlds, quick reving, high hp all with great tq and good efficiency/emissions. Lighter batteries will make it all ebtter and this tech will save the non boosted V12. However pure electrics are comming to ferrari. Europe and China will ban ice in cities, lighter weight batteries and sheep perfomance numbers will also make batteries too hard to ignore. As to sound well get a turninlike whine which will have its own appeal.

Drive a tesla its not just the acceleration, the instantaneous response and the precsion of response is a performance step up. Regen where one pedla does acceration and a lot of the braking is also a big driving performance boon, Against pure batteries now is weight and sustained perforamance.

While I personaly think that in a ICE road car paddles take away too much engagment while offerign too little in return(on road) electric power takes what paddles offer way into the future and do offer a whole new performnce paradigm. Or once were halfway there with paddles and eps why not go all the way. Its not so much worse or betetr, just really different.

 

Excellent reply- thank you! I think the thing with the Mercedes tuned DCT is the software and I think they use programming designed to maximize the life of components over many miles. This comes at the detriment of speed of shifts.

I have driven the Tesla. On one hand- very impressive! On the other hand- not for me. A good friend summed it up very well by saying its like being told you can eat anything you want and you wont gain any weight or have any other negative outcome. But there is no flavor. I would be fine with this in a daily transportation appliance. But not in my fun car. I also think the touchscreen only interface is a dangerous thing and before someone says- use voice control- I am not going to say: "Make the temp 68"!

Anyway, I understand your points. They are well reasoned. You simply don't love the new cars and I think they are really fantastic. The world keeps changing and perhaps they will come back to a place that makes you happy.

 

A) a lot of the boringness of the modern cars is that the ABS, Anti-Skid, engine power, transmission is SO integrated.

B) why not just turn off those systems (less ABS) in the manual. PRESTO: no new software to write.

C) and as I mention from time to time: Ferrari could (COULD) add a synthetic clutch pedal to the car, and a synthetic shift level to the car, with the property that the existing ECU+TCU keep the clutch engaged when the clutch pedal is down, engauged when the clutch is up, and have a transmission region as the clutch goes in or out; then the shifter is used by the TCU to figure out how many upshifts or downshifts to do for the driver. PRESTO: NO new hardware and a pretty good illusion of a manual transmission.

 

Not difficult. Powertrain management is torque based. Desired vs actual/delivered. Works the same no matter what trans is in it except your taking transmission torque requests out of the loop.

On the GM stuff I work with anyway. I suspect others are similar.

Accelerator position translates to axle torque request, checked against other torque requests (does auto trans intervene with torque limiting for a shift for example) now you have an engine torque request which is checked against other systems (is traction control intervening, rev limiter, active handling) .....after filtering through all systems you end up at a final torque request.

 

I definitely don't object!!! Would be cool to see, but it would be also great if I didn't have to to pay taxes...a man can dream.

 

That car was delivered through AZ. I sat in it. I remember the service manager telling me that it was a pretty big deal. At the time, I didn't appreciate just how big a deal it was.

 

The dealers may have been under pressure from "above" to push the F1 option to their clients. Back in 2009, I test drove the California, I spoke afterwards to the Gen. Mgr, here at Ferrari of Vancouver about the mention that a 6-spd was mentioned in the promo literature... He said it was unlikely it would be produced but had a list of customers willing to wait for a manual. He's certainly a fan of them and would have brought them in if they ever got the allocations. Well, other than the 3, 4 or 7 cars produced out of the thousands of Cali's (delivered almost all in Europe, I believe?), the rest is history. Not sure if those customers gave up and went elsewhere, or settled for the F1...

 

Here's one of the California manuals. It sold for $435,000, not sure if that was with or without buyer's premium.

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=2877+++++118+&refno=10544529

 

Regardless, of commission or not, that's quite the premium. Although for a genuine collectible. Thanks for posting that. Whether it can be confirmed or not, I like how they make reference to the 360 as the source for the transmission

 

The problem with electric hybrid drivetrains in manual cars is coordinating the electrical output to the variability in shifting with a 3-pedal. Not worth doing it. Easier to build once for the paddle car.

I say the best solution would be as a $70,000 to $100,000 option. Ferrari is going to a unified platform. It should be easier to source a ZF transmission in manual and use common shifter components to complete the mechanicals. Just use a clutch master cylinder from a Porsche 911 and double up on the brake pedal with 1 cm removed from either side. Clutch internals can be taken from the 360 or 430 or 550...
What will happen is the collectors will buy the high priced option for speculation as they're "rare". This will guarantee that a small portion of the production run is made into a 3-pedal. The good side is most new Ferrari buyers won't buy it and they'll be available to enthusiasts. The bad is that they'll be really expensive and the same 599 manual debate will rage on. People who buy the parts and convert their cars will have a great time and have the experience they want while the purists will state reasons why a car can't be converted or shouldn't be converted.. all the while complaining about "speculation" and how the prices of factory manual cars are too high and how a converted car should be priced at a significant discount. Even when no converted cars can be found to buy as owners are actually driving them.

Basically nothing would change.

 

Here's my recipie. take one 4c tub or get Dallara to make somehting slightly different, a key componant being, wishbone suspensnion. Drop in/attach the alfa 505hp ttv6 which is apparently a ferrari v8 minus 2clys anyway, its ok if wheelbase is slightly longer. Since the body is essentialy cladding cloth it in something great and purposeful with classic latin flair.

If it has to be Dc t so be it, but dont add eps. Alafa has already developed a manual box for the giulia so no excuses on no manual though.
Viola you have your modern incarnation of a F40 a raw purposeful car, Development is minimal because nearly all the pieces are already in production. 2700lbs probably 550hp.

 

Then its just lazyness and arrogance at ferrari. Possibly the 458 pwerplant was ill suited to mnaual being very peaky, but the 488 powerplant with its low end tq and lower redline is ideal.

 

You can turn everyhtign off, its still totaly hyundai boring on road unless you are above 9/10ths, because all the interfaces are muted and synthesized.
Turning off nanies just makes it more interactive and exciting at or near the limits.

 

I think 458 would have been perfect. Nearly identical power/torque curve and rpm as GT3. Just pack the ratios together tightly and peaky is fine.